Michaels Hand: Bid Right?

[gurgistan]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=saq942hkj984dc982&s=sj865hqt3dt73ckq6]133|200|Scoring: IMP

This is with a semi-regular partner.

 

It is passed out to West who opens 1♦. Partner bids 2♦. East doubles. I bid 2♠. West bids 3♦. Partner bids 3♠. It is passed out.

 

Could someone comment on the bidding please?[/hv]

[hrothgar]

Many good players would choose to open the North hand 1♠. With this said and done...

 

After the Michaels cue bid 2♠ seems very timid. You know you have a double fit in Spades and Hearts. You know you have a nine card Spade fit. You know you have QTx in Hearts.

 

After partner bids 3♠, pass is unthinkable. You have enormous extras, Txx in Diamonds (opposite partner's presumed void) is an amazing plus.

 

From my perspective, passing 3♠ is the single worst bid, however, I am having enormous difficultly finding any action that I like.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

 

If partner is trusted to have 5-5+, 3S at your first chance takes away a lot of their bidding room. It is a close decision

with 4333 shape, however, you hold no wasted D values. This is fair hand with a 'double fit' in the majors.

 

The 3S call is a big overbid by your partner. You might bid 2S with xx in spades.

If East held defensive cards, 3S could go for a big penalty even with you

holding xxx of spades.

 

Regards,

Robert

[aguahombre]

Many good players would choose to open the North hand 1♠. With this said and done...

 

After the Michaels cue bid 2♠ seems very timid. You know you have a double fit in Spades and Hearts. You know you have a nine card Spade fit. You know you have QTx in Hearts.

 

After partner bids 3♠, pass is unthinkable. You have enormous extras, Txx in Diamonds (opposite partner's presumed void) is an amazing plus.

 

From my perspective, passing 3♠ is the single worst bid, however, I am having enormous difficultly finding a action that I like.

all of that. North's original pass would not be my choice, but South just sat there like a statue.

[peachy]

I would open the N hand, and I am certain so would most other people. As it turns out, we can still recover after N passed. South failed to appreciate the double fit, he cannot just give a tepid preference to spades with such a good hand. Well, he can and he did, but it was not a good choice.

[pooltuna]

Many good players would choose to open the North hand 1♠. With this said and done...

 

After the Michaels cue bid 2♠ seems very timid. You know you have a double fit in Spades and Hearts. You know you have a nine card Spade fit. You know you have QTx in Hearts.

 

After partner bids 3♠, pass is unthinkable. You have enormous extras, Txx in Diamonds (opposite partner's presumed void) is an amazing plus.

 

From my perspective, passing 3♠ is the single worst bid, however, I am having enormous difficultly finding any action that I like.

with the caveat that the OP apparently is not playing split range Michaels how much do you like it and what is the difference if your minors were swapped :)

[hrothgar]

Many good players would choose to open the North hand 1♠.  With this said and done...

 

After the Michaels cue bid 2♠ seems very timid.  You know you have a double fit in Spades and Hearts.  You know you have a nine card Spade fit.  You know you have QTx in Hearts.

 

After partner bids 3♠, pass is unthinkable.  You have enormous extras, Txx in Diamonds (opposite partner's presumed void) is an amazing plus. 

 

From my perspective, passing 3♠ is the single worst bid, however, I am having enormous difficultly finding any action that I like.

with the caveat that the OP apparently is not playing split range Michaels how much do you like it and what is the difference if your minors were swapped :)

Comment 1: How many people play a split ranged Michaels by a passed hand?

 

Comment 2: Seems like I already cited Txx in Diamonds as a reason to upgrade... One might infer that swapping the minors would be cause for adjustment.

[campboy]

I don't think South's final pass is so bad. North hasn't opened; he doesn't have strength for his raise to 3♠, so he must have extra shape. Quite likely he's 6601, and for 6-6 in the majors that isn't worth opening he isn't going to have that much honour strength in his suits. I'd be expecting something like Kxxxxx, Kxxxxx, --, x.

[jdonn]

I think it's clear south should bid game at the end. Otherwise I don't mind the auction although I would always open north's hand.

[bucky]

I think it's clear south should bid game at the end. Otherwise I don't mind the auction although I would always open north's hand.

Hmm, you agree with North's 3♠ bid? If 2♦ shows 5-5, why does North have to bid 3♠ to repeat the same message?

 

To me, 3♠ should show extra shape, something like 6-5 in the majors (and weaker suits since I would definitely have opened with 6-5 shape and SAQ/HKJ).

 

I do agree that South should bid 4♠, given North's 3♠ bid (which in my view is wrong).

[aguahombre]

yeh, After failing to open it seems North tried to catch up by bidding the same hand twice. But South twice failed to bid his hand.

[jdonn]

I think it's clear south should bid game at the end. Otherwise I don't mind the auction although I would always open north's hand.

Hmm, you agree with North's 3♠ bid? If 2♦ shows 5-5, why does North have to bid 3♠ to repeat the same message?

 

To me, 3♠ should show extra shape, something like 6-5 in the majors (and weaker suits since I would definitely have opened with 6-5 shape and SAQ/HKJ).

 

I do agree that South should bid 4♠, given North's 3♠ bid (which in my view is wrong).

Because he has a void, that is extra shape. Also he is a passed hand so there is no danger partner will play him for more. I would certainly bid 3♠ as a passed hand.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 I would have opened the North hand, and I consider myself

conservative, if it comes to 1 level openings, at least compared

with players I encounter on the table.

#2 2S did not show the fit, it merely showed a preference for spades,

hence bidding 3S was playing with fire, he should pass.

#3 Given the flat shape and facing a passed hand, 2S is enough, unless

the X showed the diamond fit, it is not even clear, that we will face

a diamond shortage.

The 3S bid should come from South, I would not raise the 3S bid to

game, but than I would not have passed with the North hand in the first

place.

Claiming that South acted like a statue, ... maybe, but maybe he did not

expect a super max. hand either

After they showed their diamond fit, South can upgrade the clubs honor,

..., but I still would pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

2♦ doesn't promise 5-5

[aguahombre]

2♦ doesn't promise 5-5

I think you mean YOU don't promise 5-5.

[P_Marlowe]

2♦ doesn't promise 5-5

I think you mean YOU don't promise 5-5.

Me neither.

 

But we are Red vs. Green, so 5-5 is the most likely shape.

 

And taking the vulnerability into account the 3S bid from North

becomes even more insane without a known fit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

2♦ doesn't promise 5-5

Fluffy :)

[bucky]

Because he has a void, that is extra shape. Also he is a passed hand so there is no danger partner will play him for more. I would certainly bid 3♠ as a passed hand.

Wouldn't it be better to use X to show this? This way you express desire to compete but doesn't overstate your shape. Of course if this is an unpassed hand, you need a much stronger hand for X, but as a passed hand, I think you have enough value for this action, and keep the bidding flexible. Then 3♥/3♠ can be reserved to show extra shape in terms of length.

[gurgistan]

I have looked at my notes and they state that with 0-12 hcp and 3 card support I should bid partner's suit. I had 9hcp and a 4 card suit. I bid his suit. I think that as he is a passed hand that he is more likely at the lower end of the Michaels scale (8-12hcp and 5-5). With his 3♠, I just see him as competing.

 

I seem to be completely out of step with much that has been said.

 

The schema I am using is (as responder to Michaels):

 

Show support: 0-12 hcp with 3 card support

Jump Raise: 13-15 hcp

Bid Game: 16+hcp

 

Could someone please provide a better schema?

 

Many thanks.

[aguahombre]

A better scheme would be to look WHERE your points are, in light of what partner is showing. Plus, it wouldn't hurt to notice you have 4-card support, not 3.

 

"To Bid or Not to Bid", by Larry Cohen is a good starter for the Law of Total Tricks. While it is a fact that many posters sneer at the Law being applied rigidly (me too), that book is a must for developing judgement in competitive auctions --or auctions what are likely to become competitive..

[the hog]

I agree with Richard's first post. South should value the double fit. Bidding 3S by Nth is not showing extra shape here - as Bucky says, this is a poor bid as he is bidding his values twice. Finally Fluffy, most DO play 5/5. I have seen some international players who play that you can have 4S and 5H for this bid.

[Zelandakh]

Taking North first, this hand appears to be a normal opening of 1S. Having accidentally passed I would personally overcall 1S planning to rebid something like 3H. This would show a maximum pass with the majors. Having decided against that action and gone with Michaels I would prefer 3H on the 3rd round as a game try; for me 3S is purely competitive often with a 6 card spade suit.

 

From South's side, 2S is just not enough. With a 9 card spades fit and an 8 card heart fit it seems clear to bid 3S even at red. Unlike some of the other posters I do not mind the pass of 3S. That is simply because I do not play it as showing the same hand type though.

 

Gurg, the response scheme you have is one that is sometimes given to beginners and you would perhaps get a different set of responses had you posted this in the B/I forum. It is actually quite poor but at least gives them somewhere to start that matches with their hcp counting. It is better to treat Michaels as a form of preempt and count suit lengths and tricks.

 

A common method of using Michaels is to use it only for weak (less than opening) and very strong (say 16+) hand. With in-between hands you overcall in the higher major and rebid the second suit. Then the cue bidder makes an 'unusual' call to show the strong type. The unusual call is typically a suit that cannot be held, or NT. Direct raises are always competitive showing extra shape. Finally, be aware that most beginners overuse Michaels and the UNT. If you have little prospect of winning the contract or directing a good lead then it is better to pass than show the eventual declarer how to play the hand.

 

Responder then follows a similar pattern - all direct raises are competitive. With a stronger hand you make a different call such as 2NT or a cue bid. Where the second suit is an unknown minor you have to decide if 2NT asks only for the second suit or if it asks both for the second suit and also for range - in the latter case you would use 3C as pass/correct for the minor with a weak hand. With such a weak hand never tip off the opponents that there is a misfit by trying to bid NT naturally or introducing your own suit. Just show preference for partner and hope they bid again.

 

Naturally there are alternative treatments to the above.

[bucky]

The schema I am using is (as responder to Michaels):

 

Show support: 0-12 hcp with 3 card support

Jump Raise: 13-15 hcp

Bid Game: 16+hcp

I think what you missed is this question: what do you bid when you don't have 3-card support?

[nige1]

Dealer: North Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ AQ942 ♥ KJ984 ♦ [space] ♣ 982 ♠ J865 ♥ QT3 ♦ T73 ♣ KQ6

This is with a semi-regular partner. It is passed out to West who opens 1♦. Partner bids 2♦. East doubles. I bid 2♠. West bids 3♦. Partner bids 3♠. It is passed out. Could someone comment on the bidding please?

IMO: Nobody did much wrong. North could open 1♠. South should probably bid 3♠. North's 3♠ is brave/foolhardy. A 4♠ raise would be OK but it is hard for South to advance when he knows opponents have more HCP and double-fit. If partner has:

♠ KQxxx ♥ KJxxxx ♦ x ♣ x,

then 4♠X goes down and either opponent may be grateful for the opportunity to bid 5/6♦

[gurgistan]

I have thought a little and the following schema seems better than the one I posted earlier:

 

 

0-9hcp and 3 card support = 2 level bid if mandatory

6-9hcp and 3 card support = 2 level bid if voluntary ie. over intervention

6-9hcp and 4 card support = 3 level bid

9hcp+ and 5 card support = 4 level bid

 

without support:

better suit if mandatory

2N asking for minor, where appropriate

2N with 12-13hcp over both majors

3N with 15hcp+

 

 

Could someone please comment on the viability of this proposed schema?

 

Many thanks.