Balanced hand relays after 1C Strong

[olien]

I'm trying to figure out the best structure possible to show balanced hands after a strong 1C opening. Our balanced hands include: 5♠(332), 5m(332), any 4333, and any 4432. We want to have our strength divided into 3 ranges in as many situations as possible, but having only 2 ranges, when necessary, is OK.

 

Our balanced hands effectively go through 1C-2C and 1C-2D (with some bids in-between in the latter auction which are not relevant). We are also trying to make the structure as symmetric as possible.

 

The structure we have now is:

1C-2C shows balanced 8-11 (but could be more with 33(43) or 4S-4D).

After the 2D relay, 2H=33(43) or 4S-4D any strength, and 2S+ are like 1C-2D// 2H. That structure is:

2S 5m(332) or 4-4 minors (now 3C=5C, 3D=4/4 minors, 3H+=5D zoom->doubleton)

2N 5S(332) or 4-4 majors (now 3D=4/4 majors, 3H+=5S zoom->doubleton)

3C 4H-4C or 3433 (now 3H=2434, 3S=3424, 3N=3433)

3D 4H-4D

3H 4234

3S 4324

3N 4333

 

Right now, we have 2 ranges: 8-11 and 12+, but are trying to devise a more efficient structure where we can have narrower ranges (maybe 8-10, 11-13, 14+ or similar). Or where we can keep the same two ranges, but maybe have like a 3S size ask bid available at the close of more auctions. All suggestions would be welcome. Thank You

[hrothgar]

For what its worth, I think that resolving the range of various GF hands before you show shape makes life WAY too complicated.

 

Here's the relay structure that I typically use to show balanced hands

 

In theory, you could use a 1N response to show 1 range and bids from 2♦+ to show the other.

 

3♠ = 2-3-3-5 shape

3♥ = 3-2-3-5 shape

3♦ 3-3-2-5 shape

3♣ = 2-3-4-4 or 3-2-4-4 shape

2N = 5332 with primary clubs

2♠ = any 4333 shape

2♥ = 4+ Spades, 2-3 Hearts, denies 4-3-3-3 shape

2♦ = 4+ Hearts, denies 3-4-3-3 shape

 

After

 

2♥, 2♠ = relay and then

 

2N = 5332

3♣ = 4 Hearts and 4 Clubs

3♦ = 2-4-4-3 shape

3♥ = 3-4-4-2 shape

 

After 2♦, 2♥ = relay and then

 

2♠ = 4 Spades and 4 Hearts

2N = 5332

3♣ = 4 Spades and 4 Diamonds

3♦ = 4-2-4-3 shape

3♥ = 4-3-4-2 shape

[olien]

Hrothgar, our response structure doesn't allow for this. Our response structure is:

 

1D=negative

1H=4+S or 12+ balanced (if only 4S, then 3-suited or longer minor)

1S=5+H

1N=5+C (could be 5-5 minors)

2C=8-11 balanced (or 8+ if 33(43) or 4S-4D)

2D=6+D

2H=4+H 5+D

2S=1444, 04(54), 44(50)

2N+=5+D 4C

[hrothgar]

Hrothgar, our response structure doesn't allow for this. Our response structure is:

 

1D=negative

1H=4+S or 12+ balanced (if only 4S, then 3-suited or longer minor)

1S=5+H

1N=5+C (could be 5-5 minors)

2C=8-11 balanced (or 8+ if 33(43) or 4S-4D)

2D=6+D

2H=4+H 5+D

2S=1444, 04(54), 44(50)

2N+=5+D 4C

If you're resolving balanced hands with 1NT, simply shift things up by a step.

 

You'll probably want to adjust the transfer response scheme, however, the basic system will still work and you won't bypass 3NT with any hand type

[olien]

After 1C-1H// 1S (relay):

1NT=4S unbalanced or 12+ balanced

2C+=5+S, resolving shape

 

After the 1NT bid, 2C relays and then:

2D=12+ balanced

2H=4S 5+C

2S=4(441) or 40(54)

2N+=4S 5+D

 

Now you don't have room to resolve everything as you suggested. We need to cover 25 hands types (9 5332s, 12 4432s, and 4 4333s), and there is only room for 21 hand types after the 2D bid showing 12+ balanced.

[hrothgar]

After 1C-1H// 1S (relay):

1NT=4S unbalanced or 12+ balanced

2C+=5+S, resolving shape

 

After the 1NT bid, 2C relays and then:

2D=12+ balanced

2H=4S 5+C

2S=4(441) or 40(54)

2N+=4S 5+D

 

Now you don't have room to resolve everything as you suggested. We need to cover 25 hands types (9 5332s, 12 4432s, and 4 4333s), and there is only room for 21 hand types after the 2D bid showing 12+ balanced.

I'm pretty fond of the relay scheme that I listed...

Its very symmetric and very easy to remember.

 

Potentially, you might want to consider giving up on the split range with the balanced hand types. This should save you quite a lot of space.

 

In my experience, its far from essentially and eliminating this will really simplify your life. (The relay scheme that I use is based on a 1♦ response showing (almost) any GF hand.

 

We use a RR by the 1♣ opener to limit strength.

[olien]

We could re-arrange our responses to use your suggested structure:

 

1H=5+S or any balanced hand

2C=4S unbalanced

rest=same

 

 

after 1C-1H// 1S-1N=balanced, and 2C relays and puts us on track with the suggested structure. Have you had problems with wrong-siding contracts with responder "stealing" the NT contract, and declaring more hands with known distribution?

 

As an aside, the 1D response as almost any GF, does this work well for you? Do the opponents not interfere in a way that's bad for you? How does this initial response structure look when typed up?

 

Thanks

[olien]

As a note, in ACBLand, any non-1D response to 1C which is artificial MUST be game-forcing. So, I guess whatever you have just wouldn't be allowed :) But, I would still like to know your experiences with siding issues with the balanced responding hand bidding 1NT. Thanks

[hrothgar]

As an aside, the 1D response as almost any GF, does this work well for you?  Do the opponents not interfere in a way that's bad for you?  How does this initial response structure look when typed up?

I like 1♣ - 1♦ = most any GF

 

1. We're able to immediately show shape with semi positive hands which forestalls many competitive auctions.

 

2. If the opponents do intervene after 1♣ - (P) - (1♦) we have an unambiguous forcing pass established which makes life a LOT easier.

 

3. The strong club opener can immediately reverse the relay and limit strength

 

4. In many cases, we're able to reverse the relay after a balanced hand bids 1NT

 

After a strong club opening

 

3N - 5=4=4=0 shape

3♠ - 4=5=4=0 shape

3♥ - 4=4=5=0 shape

3♦ - 5440 with a Diamond void

3♣ - AKQxxxx in any suit

2N - 5440 with a major suit void

2♠ - Single suited with Spades

2♥ - Single suited with Hearts

2♦ - 5+ Spades and 4+ Diamonds

2♣ - 5+ Spades and (4+ Hearts or 4+ Clubs)

1N - Unbalanced with 5+ Hearts

1♠ - Double negative

1♥ - Balanced or unbalanced with no 5 card major

1♦ - GF (denies 5440 or solid 7+ card suit)

 

After 1♣ - 1♦

(Or 1♣ - 1♦ - 1♥)

 

3N - 3=0=6=4 shape

3♠ - 2=1=6=4 shape

3♥ - 3=1=5=4 shape

3♦ - 3=2=5=2 shape

3♣ - 5+ Diamonds and 4 Clubs, High shortage

2N - 5+ Diamonds and 5+ Clubs

2♠ - 4 Diamonds and 5+ Clubs

2♥ - Single suited with Spades

2♦ - Two suited with Spades and Diamonds

2♣ - Single suited with Clubs or 2 suited with Spades and Clubs

1N - Balanced or 4441

1♠ - Two suited with Hearts or Single suited Hearts or Single Suited Diamonds

1♥ - Relay

[glen]

As a note, in ACBLand, any non-1D response to 1C which is artificial MUST be game-forcing.  ...

This is incorrect for 1♣ 15+ (or if you defined your opening as forcing). Please see:

 

http://www.acbl.org/assets/documents/play/...ntion-Chart.pdf

 

7. ARTIFICIAL AND CONVENTIONAL CALLS after strong (15+ HCP), forcing opening bids and after opening bids of two clubs or higher.

[olien]

Weird, I e-mailed the ACBL just last week about system legality type stuff, and I will quote a portion of the e-mail:

 

"Conventional responses to your 1C must be game forcing"

 

I will check up on it, thanks for the heads up Glen.

[zenko]

If completely artificial responses are not an issue, the optimal space-conserving structure is one based on Fibonacci numbers tree, since it is mathematically the most efficient one. Curiously enough it is also the easiest one to remember IMO, once you grasp the basic principle its a breeze.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number

[rbforster]

Weird, I e-mailed the ACBL just last week about system legality type stuff, and I will quote a portion of the e-mail:

 

"Conventional responses to your 1C must be game forcing"

Well, asking the ACBL is just an invitation to get random answers. Glen is correct that all artificial responses are allowed after a strong opening. How do you think the standard players get away with 2♣-2♦ waiting, 2♥ negative, etc? Same rule.

[rbforster]

Hrothgar, our response structure doesn't allow for this.  Our response structure is:

 

1D=negative

1H=4+S or 12+ balanced (if only 4S, then 3-suited or longer minor)

1S=5+H

1N=5+C (could be 5-5 minors)

2C=8-11 balanced (or 8+ if 33(43) or 4S-4D)

2D=6+D

2H=4+H 5+D

2S=1444, 04(54), 44(50)

2N+=5+D 4C

IMO, going with the split range for balanced hands isn't a good plan and I'm not sure when people do this playing relays. I guess it helps if you only think as far as the first response to a strong club and then "bid naturally" and need a way to show extras or not.

 

I think there are two more big choices here:

 

1) Do you want to include 5332 hands as balanced?

2) Do you want to right-side NT?

 

I certainly prefer #2, and would ideally like to include 5m332 as balanced as well. 5M332 I think would be best showing the major, but if you play symmetric relay that'll screw up your major-minor single suited responses.

 

In my strong club, I compromised and used the following:

 

1C-1S balanced (4432/4333 only) or 1-suited clubs

1N-2C just clubs (which includes 5332)

......2D+ balanced hands (use TOSR if you want, but I've got better relays if you ask :unsure:)

 

Shape resolves at 3D/3H typically, so you can get a cheap range-ask in at that point and only go past 3N when responder shows the 3rd step in values (so it's probably ok).

 

In an older version of a strong club I was taught, we used 1S for all balanced hands including all 5332s. There were some nice relays after this that resolved at 3C/3D/3H(zoom), so lots of space for showing strength later. I eventually decided on the above version instead since I thought I wanted to allocate more bidding space to the unbalanced hands for slam investigation.

[straube]

I agree with RobF about not dividing your balanced hands into two or more ranges. Find your strain before you look for extras. Also, if you have multiple bids for strengths they'll go unused when you're relaying out your passed hands.

[straube]

How about...

 

1D-0-7

1H-4S

.....1N-4H

..........2D-3-suited w Ms

.....2C-4D

.....2D-6S

.....2H-5C, reverser

1S-C, D, or C/D

.....2C-C/D

.....2D-6C

.....2H-3-suited w ms

.....2S-6D bal

1N-4H

.....2D-6H

.....2H-5C, reverser

2C-H/D

2D-4H, bal

.....2S-4C

.....2N-5H

.....3C-4423

.....3D-4432

.....3H-2443

.....3S-3442

2H-4S, bal

.....2N-5S

.....3C-4234

.....3D-4324

.....3H-4243

.....3S-4342

2S-(4333)

2N-5C

3C-4m4m

3D-2353

3H-3253

3S-3352

[rbforster]

I am a fan of shape before strength. That said, strength is important and needs to be sorted out below 3N, which is the tightest constraint of all game hands. I would want to make sure I left enough space to resolve full shape with a top bid of 3H ideally. This means that the top shape shows 3 strength ranges without passing 3N (3H/3S/3N zooming), and the second top shape still shows 2 range (3D shape - 3H® - 3S/3N/4C zooming). All lower shapes get 3+ ranges.

 

If you don't have space for this in your system, I would consider reworking your system. Balanced hands are VERY common, so you should handle them well. If this means you have to screw up your shape relays on some 7330 shapes, well, those are very rare and much more likely to be contested auctions too.

[Free]

For balanced hands you can also use 2♦ as a relay (2♥ is too high though). Therefor 2♣ can be used to show a balanced hand, and you can use several ways to get there (1♣-2♣ or 1♣-1♥-1♠-2♣ for example) to show various ranges. I agree with Richard that it makes things more complicated to show various ranges immediately.

 

After 2♦ relay:

2♥ = 4-5♥

...2NT = 5♥332

...3♣ = 4♥-4♣

......3♥/♠ = 2-3/3-2

...3♦ = 4♥-4♦

......3♠/NT = 2-3/3-2

...3♥ = 4=4=2=3

...3♠ = 4=4=3=2

...3NT = 3=4=3=3

2♠ = 4-5♠

...3♣ = 5♠332

...3♦ = 4♠-4♦

...3♥ = 4=2=3=4

...3♠ = 4=3=2=4

...3NT = 4=3=3=3

2NT = 5♣332/3=3=3=4

...3♦/M = 5332

...3NT = 3=3=3=4

3♣ = 4♦-4♣

...3♥/♠ = 2-3/3-2

3♦/M = 5♦332

3NT = 3=3=4=3

 

This is pretty symmetrical. If you want to rightside the contract more often, I suggest to reverse the meanings of 2M. Since opener has bid both minors (1♣ opening an 2♦ relay) there's no need to reverse these as well. You could however bid the suits up the line if you prefer that.

 

If you want 3 ranges, it may be useful to combine the weakest and the strongest in 1 call. That way, responder can zoom if he holds the strongest possible holding. Suppose you want 8-11, 12-15 and 16+. Combine 8-11 with 16+ in 1 response. Then, if opener relays and responder would bid 3NT, he can bid 4♣ to show the 4333 with 16+HCP. Also if opener wants to signoff, responder can still bid something else.

[hrothgar]

Weird, I e-mailed the ACBL just last week about system legality type stuff, and I will quote a portion of the e-mail:

 

"Conventional responses to your 1C must be game forcing"

 

I will check up on it, thanks for the heads up Glen.

I'd LOVE to see the entire email... These things are always good for a laugh.

 

I often wonder whether the continuous stream of nonsensical and contradictory interpretations is deliberate or symptomatic.

[Free]

Noooooo don't email the ACBL and quote their responses for Richard to read!!! :( :D

[akhare]

Adding to the chorus here -- define a QP base (A=3, K=2, Q=1) for opener (suggest 9/10) and the positive responses (suggest 6 with some 5) and don't worry about strength until after you have resolved shape.

 

In most cases, you will know the combined strength below 3N (need in the ballpark of 20 QPs to consider slam and little less with shape).

[Zelandakh]

Hrothgar, our response structure doesn't allow for this. Our response structure is:

 

1D=negative

1H=4+S or 12+ balanced (if only 4S, then 3-suited or longer minor)

1S=5+H

1N=5+C (could be 5-5 minors)

2C=8-11 balanced (or 8+ if 33(43) or 4S-4D)

2D=6+D

2H=4+H 5+D

2S=1444, 04(54), 44(50)

2N+=5+D 4C

The simple solution to your problem is to include all the balanced hands with 4-5 spades in your 1H response and the balanced hands without 4 spades in your 2C bid. Within your original concept this might mean

 

1C - 1H - 1S - 2D - 2H

2S = 4 hearts, 4 spades

2N = 5S332

3C = 4 spades, 4 diamonds

3D = 4333

3H = 4=2=3=4

3S+ = 4=3=4=2

 

and

1C - 2C - 2D

2H = 2-3 spades, 2-3 hearts

2S = see below

2N = 5H332

3C = 4 hearts, 4 diamonds

3D = 3433

3H = 2=4=3=4

3S+ = 3=4=3=4

 

I left a gap at 2S because it spoils the symmetry of the structure (giving an overhead on memory). One option would be to use this bid as a 3-suiter without spades. You could, of course, also split the 'no major' balanced hands between 2H and 2S.

 

FWiiW I split my balanced hands up like this but in a way that always shows a major if I have one. Thus

 

1C - 1S (no major) - 1N - 2H = balanced with no major

1C - 2D = 4-5 hearts, 0-3 spades, balanced or 3-suited (then all rebids from 2NT up are balanced)

1C - 2H = 4-5 spades, 0-3 hearts, balanced

1C - 1H (spades) - 1S - 1N (hearts) - 2C - 2D = balanced or 3-suited (then 2S= 4432/4441)

 

Looking over your structure I would suggest a further tweak, namely switching round your 1S bid with your 1NT and 2C bids, ie

 

1C - 1S = balanced, or clubs

1C - 1N = hearts and clubs, or heart 1-suiter

1C - 2C = hearts and diamonds

 

This makes it more likely for the strong, unknown hand to be declarer in NT when that is most likely to be the final contract. It has no effect on anything else as these 3 bids form a closed system.

 

You could, of course, instead do a similar thing with your 2C and 2D/2H responses to give

1C - 2C = 6+ diamonds, or 5+ diamonds and 4 hearts

1C - 2D = various balanced hands (eg 4-5 hearts)

1C - 2H = various balanced hands (eg no major)

 

You do lose out on being able to show the hearts immediately. An option to show the hearts would be to then switch your 5D4H hands with your 5D4C hands. Thus

1C - 2C = 6+ diamonds, or 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs

1C - 2N+ = 5+ diamond and 4 hearts

 

So my 2 suggestions for tweaking your responses are

 

1D = neg

1H = 4+ spades, or some balanced hands (eg 4-5 spades)

1S = balanced, or 5+ clubs

1N = 6+ hearts, or 5+ hearts and 4+ clubs

2C = 5+ hearts and 4+ diamonds

2D = 6+ diamonds

2H = 5+ diamonds and 4 hearts

2S = 3-suiter with 0-1 hearts

2N+ = 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs

 

and

 

1D = neg

1H = 4+ spades, or some balanced hands (eg 4-5 spades)

1S = 5+ hearts

1N = 5+ clubs

2C = 6+ diamonds, or 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs

2D = various balanced hands (eg 4-5 hearts)

2H = various balanced hands (eg no major)

2S = 3-suiter with 0-1 hearts

2N+ = 5+ diamonds and 4 hearts

 

Finally, you can combine these 2 schemes as follows:-

 

1D = neg

1H = 4+ spades, or some balanced hands (eg 4-5 spades)

1S = 5+ clubs, or 6+ diamonds, or 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs

1N = 6+ hearts, or 5+ hearts and 4+ clubs

2C = 5+ hearts and 4+ diamonds

2D = various balanced hands (eg 4-5 hearts)

2H = various balanced hands (eg no major)

2S = 3-suiter with 0-1 hearts

2N+ = 5+ diamonds and 4 hearts

 

I think each of these 3 schemes is a small improvement on the original, albeit that the benefits are not large enough to warrant picking any above something you are comfortable with. As you can probably tell from my earlier ramble I take all of the GF hands without a major and push them into a 1S response. If you were also to do this then you would free up the balanced hands within 1H to go back to being 12+ if desired. There is enough space to do this (so long as you move the 4 hearts and 5+ clubs hands elsewhere).

eg

1C - 1S - 1NT

2C = 6+ diamonds, or 5+ diamonds and 4 clubs

2D = 6+ clubs

2H = balanced

2S = 5+ diamonds and 5+ clubs

2N+ = 5+ clubs and 4 diamonds

 

If you want to stick with your 12+ balanced option then this would be my proposed solution (under the caveats of others that this may not be optimal since you cannot fully resolve the shape).

 

1D = neg

1H = 4+ spades, or 12+ balanced

1S = 0-3 hearts, 0-3 spades (if balanced then 9-11)

1N = 6+ hearts, or 5+ hearts and 4+ clubs

2C = hearts and diamonds (at least 5-4)

2D = 9-11 balanced with 4-5 hearts

2H = 9-11 balanced with 4-5 spades and 2-3 hearts

2S = 3-suiter with 0-1 hearts

2N+ = 5+ clubs and 4 hearts

 

Hopefully this final possibility is the kind of thing you were looking for. In reaching it we have lost the ability to promise 5+ hearts when we have both red suits. As that was a premise of your original concept it might be a step too far for you. I do not think there is a better way for you to get your split NT ranges though.

[dake50]

Do you expect top range to zoom above the responses for lower range if/when relayed?

That trades back space when slam/grand is most likely.

Or just hope good answers keep relayer continuing for slam/grand? Can the top range then ever decide to up a slam to grand with unshown values?

I have similar partitions to get asks simplified --at least for common shapes/strengths. There remain some that just persist as "by guess and by golly".

[olien]

Sorry, I didn't clarify very well.

 

1H=4+S, but may only have a longer minor (not 4S-5+H)

1S=5+H

etc...

 

Our balanced hands include 5S-(332) and 5m(332), and all 4432s and 4333s.

 

It looks like we're going to go with:

 

1H 4+S

1S 5+H

1N 5+C

2C balanced hand, <4S

2D 6+D

2H 5+D 4+H

2S 1444, 04(54), 44(50)

2N+ 5+D 4C

 

 

We will probably reorganize the responses to have fewer problems with wrong-siding. Rob F, I would like to see this structure of your that you're talking about if you don't mind sharing.

[straube]

just curious what olien is looking for now. Is keeping 1S as 5 hearts essential? How much space does he want to devote to the balanced hands.