Handling 3 card invites in SA

[Flameous]

I'm playing standard 5 card majors system with 2/1 not GF. I've reserved 3 lvl for fitjumps so no bergen or such. Now I'm looking for if someone has come up with the best approach to 3 card invite/forcing raises in 2/1 sequences. I've played a style where 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ shows only a doubleton although I recently learned that in sayc it actually shows the 3 card invite. This seems quite an improvement really cause I can set trumps in a forcing way with 3♠.

 

But the problem sequence is 1♠ - 2x - 2♠, if I need 3♠ as a limit raise with 3 card, I have no way to set trumps and force. (Except when I can splinter w/ 3 card support here)

 

I was thinking about making 2NT a forcing w/ 3 cards, but this puts quite a strain on 2♠ since you must bid something else whenever you'd accept a balanced invite and in addition you'd have to bid 1NT with all hands that have singleton ♠ and not GF, so it almost turns semiforcing.

 

Any thoughts on this matter?

[fromageGB]

It seems to me 1♠ 2x 2♠ 4♠ sets trumps and is a GF ;)

Maybe I am not understanding your sequence properly.

Alternatively, play 1NT forcing, or give up the fitjump without competition, and play Bergen ?

[gwnn]

you could play 2♣ as artificial, either natural or 3 card raise

 

then opener could rebid 2♦ artificial waiting bid (or artificial negative)

 

then you can bid like

 

1♠-2♣*

2♦*-

 

2♥=natural GF 5/4 (or artificial GF, probably better as artificial GF...)

2♠=3 card raise, NF

2NT=10-12 balanced, NF

3♣=10-12 6 clubs, NF (of course 10-12 here is just a silly range, you'd normally GF with 12 and 6 clubs also 2/1 with good 9)

 

this is a nice way of bidding. sometimes of course you get in trouble when your ranges get messed up but that's something that you should be prepared when you play 2/1 non GF (also when you play 2/1 GF in forcing NT auctions and also to a lesser extent in 2/1 auctions)

[whereagles]

But the problem sequence is 1♠ - 2x - 2♠, if I need 3♠ as a limit raise with 3 card, I have no way to set trumps and force. (Except when I can splinter w/ 3 card support here)

To be able to bid 1M-2x-2M-3M as forcing is one of the main advantages of 2/1 game force.

 

In french standard the issue is solved by faking a 3 card suit and supporting afterwards. Example:

 

1♠ 2♦

2♠ 3♣

3NT 4♠

 

3♣ = game forcing, but may be 3 cards only. Opener can only support with 5 cards.

4♠ = slammish-bound, honest 3 card support. Non forcing, but highly invitational.

 

If it had gone instead

 

1♠ 2♦

2♠ 4♠

 

Then responder shows no slam interest.

 

Not ideal, but it works. I prefer the 2/1 GF approach, though.

[Fluffy]

on the french std I know you bid 1♠-3♠ with invitational and 2x then 3♠ with slam interest. 1♠-2x-2♠ gets you stuck with no invitational. That was never an issue for me.

[whereagles]

on the french std I know you bid 1♠-3♠ with invitational and 2x then 3♠ with slam interest. 1♠-2x-2♠ gets you stuck with no invitational. That was never an issue for me.

That's not what I read. What you say would make

 

1M 2x

2M 3M

 

a slam invite. Thus with, say,

 

xxx

xxx

Kx

AQJxx

 

you'd have to bid 1M-3M, obscuring the nature of the invite (club-based). In the book I read, this hand bids 2x and follows up with 3M, which is non-forcing.

 

Agree it's rarely an issue. But it does come up from time to time and one has to know where one stands.

[glen]

... I've reserved 3 lvl for fitjumps ...

If I played 5cM with 2/1 not GF, I would give up the fit jumps since I need other bids to take the pressure off the very loaded 2/1 sequences. In particular I would play:

1M-2NT as GF, natural (assuming that 2/1, then 2NT is not forcing)

1M-jumps as raises:

-- the lowest suit jump showing a GF, 3 trumps, and cheapest bid asks hand type

-- second lowest suit jump is GF, 4+ trumps and cheapest bid asks hand type

-- third lowest is GI, 4+ trumps

-- 1M-3M is 4+ trumps, close to a GI.

1M-1NT is non-forcing, max of 10.

[lexlogan]

I'm playing standard 5 card majors system with 2/1 not GF. I've reserved 3 lvl for fitjumps so no bergen or such. Now I'm looking for if someone has come up with the best approach to 3 card invite/forcing raises in 2/1 sequences. I've played a style where 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ shows only a doubleton although I recently learned that in sayc it actually shows the 3 card invite. This seems quite an improvement really cause I can set trumps in a forcing way with 3♠.

 

But the problem sequence is 1♠ - 2x - 2♠, if I need 3♠ as a limit raise with 3 card, I have no way to set trumps and force. (Except when I can splinter w/ 3 card support here)

 

I was thinking about making 2NT a forcing w/ 3 cards, but this puts quite a strain on 2♠ since you must bid something else whenever you'd accept a balanced invite and in addition you'd have to bid 1NT with all hands that have singleton ♠ and not GF, so it almost turns semiforcing.

 

Any thoughts on this matter?

How do you play 1♠-2♦-2NT? I play it as minimum, non-forcing; and 1♠-2♦-2♠ does not promise 6 spades, it merely denies the ability to bid something else. With that in mind, 1♠-2♦-2♠-2NT is forcing, simply because opener does not have the hand he would want to pass 2NT with -- he either has extra length in spades or a minimum with a club or diamond suit (too weak to bid it last round) or a balanced hand too strong to pass 2NT.

 

A simpler if somewhat more radical method is to allow opener to bid any of 2NT, 3C or 3D with minimum hands, not forcing. All strong hands lacking a heart suit (i.e., a suit that could be shown at the two level) rebid 2♠, which now promises either extra length or extra strength. Again, responder's 2NT is logically forcing, opener rebidding 3♠ to show 6 or anything else to show extra strength. (Rebidding hearts would suggest a good 6-4.)

 

After 1♠-2♦-2♠-2NT-3♠, any suit bid by responder is a control bid agreeing spades as trumps. (This includes 4♦.) The logic is that responder's 2NT denies a terribly shapely hand.

 

Assuming you treat 1♠-2♦-2♠-3♠ as invitational, responder with game-forcing values not suitable for an immediate splinter or Jacoby 2NT raise may have to make two bids before supporting opener, but those bids should help clarify responder's hand and assist with slam exploration. Hands with values only in responder's suit and opener's can rebid 4♠. If opener shows a minimum by rebidding 2NT, 3♣ or3♦, responder can use 3 of the other major as an artificial game force.

[awm]

In SAYC, 1♠-3♠ is a limit raise and could be three or four card support. Thus you're not sending three-card limit raises through a 2/1 sequence; they are supposed to raise directly.

 

It follows that 1♠-2♣-2RED-2♠ is not a three-card limit raise. Doubleton support is actually a very good use of this sequence; it avoids a number of bad 2NT contracts or wrong-sided 3NT contracts and wins a lot of boards against 2/1 players who basically have to bid 1♠-1NT(F)-2RED-2NT on this hand type.

 

It also follows that raising opener to the three-level (1♠-2♣-2RED-3♠) is a game forcing three card raise, and that 1♠-2X-2♠-3♠ should also be game forcing (2♠ didn't really show six here, so we wouldn't raise with a doubleton).

 

If you don't like the fact that SAYC's 1♠-3♠ is ambiguous about trump support, rather than putting limit raises through a 2/1 sequence I recommend using 2NT as a limit raise or better instead of Jacoby. A very simple set of rebids after 1M-2NT is: (1) three of a suit below the major shows shortness, not specific about strength; if responder bids 3M next that shows a limit raise and is not forcing; any other call by responder is forcing to game (2) three of the major shows a minimum hand with no shortness below the major suit, and can be passed by responder with a limit raise; any other call by responder is a game force (cuebidding) (3) 3♠ when hearts is our major shows shortness with extras and is forcing to game (4) 3NT shows hand with no shortness and with mild extras, and is game forcing, but responder should just bid 4M unless he has a lot of extras (5) 4♣ and above are cuebids with no shortage but a rock-crusher of a hand and demand a cuebid from partner. There are lots of other methods for 2NT=LR+ and a search through the forums can find some; these other methods are normally quite a bit more complicated than what I outlined above, but are also potentially better.

[Siegmund]

There are various solutions.

 

Going back to 1M-3M on three-card suits is quite possibly the worst of alternatives. (It's something that's in many beginner books, where the whole system is oversimplified, but was universally deprecated in advanced non-2/1 books from 1960s Goren to Commonsense Bidding and beyond -- if people seriously believe it is a normal part of standard american, they have been victims of an effective smear campaign by the 2/1 crowd which likes to compare the most crippled versions of SA it can find with 2/1.)

 

If you play that 1M-2C-2M promises a rebid, you are in a bit of a bind. Coughing up a fake new suit is an option, but you're likely better off just stretching a bit.

 

Some SA pairs agree that one or both of 1M-2C-2M and 1M-2C-2NT is nonforcing. This is appealing if you find yourself having a lot of trouble with 11-opposite-11 auctions.

 

If you do play 1M-2C-2M as nonforcing (that limits 2M to ~11-13ish, and means the 3M jump starts a point or two weaker than it does for a lot of people), you pass with the worst limit raises as if your invitation has already been refused, jump to 4M with the best of them, and are free to play 1M-2C-2M-3M as a slam-try auction. That's the only sensible use for 1M-2C-2M-3M in my opinion anyway. You would gain more from having the slam sequences available than you would lose by getting to the occasional 23-point game if you are forced to overbid with the limit raise hands.