Flat as a pancake

[Rossoneri]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sk63ht42dk87ca854]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

You pass, LHO passes, partner bids 1♦, RHO bids 1♥, now what do you bid?

 

Playing 5 card majors, strong NT, short club (1♦ promises at least 4)

[pooltuna]

grit your teeth and make a -X. With a ♥ stopper maybe partner will take you to MP nirvana (1NT :blink: )

[Fluffy]

its a clear double, if you have any artificial agreements not worth sharing with us but that don't let you double, then bid what you wanna play: 1NT

[gwnn]

May we redeal please?

[tgoodwinsr]

Negative double would be ideal IF (as some play) it doesn't show spades. This sort of hand is the best advertisement for that treatment (which was devised, or at least written up, by Alan Truscott). Truscott's argument was that if you have four (or five) spades you were going to bid one spade if they didn't overcall, so how wrong can it be to do that if they bid one heart?

 

The treatment doesn't work if they overcall one spade and you have the same kind of hand, without four hearts and without a spade stopper. Then I guess you just have to grit your teeth and double anyway, unless you are prepared to pass (like they might have done in olden days) because no positive action is just right.

[Phil]

Negative double would be ideal IF (as some play) it doesn't show spades. This sort of hand is the best advertisement for that treatment (which was devised, or at least written up, by Alan Truscott). Truscott's argument was that if you have four (or five) spades you were going to bid one spade if they didn't overcall, so how wrong can it be to do that if they bid one heart?

Truscott's idea (which is also part of Walsh) was in vogue before LHO bounding to 3♥ with a weak hand. It is useful to know if we have 4 or 5 spades. This is a much more common occurrence is we bid 1♠ over 1♥ than if RHO passes.

 

Some modern methods use double to show 4-5 spades and 1♠ to deny as many as 4. That is also ideal on this hand. There are more benefits using this, since partner can declare the NT when we have an anti-positional stop.

 

I would pass. If partner passes, I think we are in a good spot. If partner doubles, 2♥ shows this hand type.

[fromageGB]

Unfortunately for me a double guarantees 4 spades, and I would hate to hear 2♠. On the other hand it might elicit 1NT, and I can bid 2♦ if he bids 1♠.

An immediate diamond raise does not do justice, and I think X is the best bet.

[aguahombre]

Negative double would be ideal IF (as some play) it doesn't show spades. This sort of hand is the best advertisement for that treatment (which was devised, or at least written up, by Alan Truscott). Truscott's argument was that if you have four (or five) spades you were going to bid one spade if they didn't overcall, so how wrong can it be to do that if they bid one heart?

Truscott's idea (which is also part of Walsh) was in vogue before LHO bounding to 3♥ with a weak hand. It is useful to know if we have 4 or 5 spades. This is a much more common occurrence is we bid 1♠ over 1♥ than if RHO passes.

 

Some modern methods use double to show 4-5 spades and 1♠ to deny as many as 4. That is also ideal on this hand. There are more benefits using this, since partner can declare the NT when we have an anti-positional stop.

 

I would pass. If partner passes, I think we are in a good spot. If partner doubles, 2♥ shows this hand type.

First paragraph is perfect historical perspective.

 

Second paragraph works for getting the correct hand to be declarer, but still doesn't solve the 4 versus 5+ spades question when the opps bid some more.

 

3rd paragraph: passing seems to cause problems no matter how the auction continues, unless specifically partner is allowed to reopen with a double of 1H and RHO remains silent.

[TylerE]

I bid 1N. Even if all the hearts are running, they still need to find two more tricks.

[Pict]

I will bid 1NT.

 

I'd be interestested to see the arguments for this being a bad idea.

[whereagles]

Clear 1NT. Showing strength/shape is far more important than tertiary stuff like stoppers.

 

For those who can't live without stoppers, I have a gadget for this: dbl, denying 4 spades.

[petterb]

I will bid 1NT.

 

I'd be interestested to see the arguments for this being a bad idea.

What if you should play 3NT?

 

Partner might have Ax/Kx/AQxxxx/KQx.

[Pict]

I will bid 1NT.

 

I'd be interestested to see the arguments for this being a bad idea.

What if you should play 3NT?

 

Partner might have Ax/Kx/AQxxxx/KQx.

If I was a typical poster like ... oh never mind... I'd probably say I'd rather be in a diamond slam on your hand.

 

But I respect your point, about wrong-siding NT.

 

It's an argument, but not enough to discourage me from a natural 1NT. Partner is still there to advance the auction.

[karlson]

I think 1n is really silly -- why deliberately wrongside when it's most likely to matter?

 

I think in general 2c is ok with this shape, but I guess I would bid 2h on this hand.

[Pict]

I think 1n is really silly -- why deliberately wrongside when it's most likely to matter?

 

I think in general 2c is ok with this shape, but I guess I would bid 2h on this hand.

Yeah fine.

 

But maybe partner doesn't have a 19 count and you sure have no source of tricks in clubs, so why do you think you are not off v partner's Ax/Kx stop.

[TylerE]

Basically, when partner has the 12-14 hand, I expect to do much better at MP bidding 1N. When he holds the 18-19 hand, it make or may not be ok. (Txx does have some benefit oppos. something like QJ tight, for instance)

 

I expect the 12-14 hand to be more likely than the 18-19 hand by at least 4-1, could easily be 10-1...don't know the odds off the top of my head.

 

MP is all about frequency of game, so I think the pragmatic 1N bid is a real long term winner, over some genius bid that will trade many small losses for the occasional big gain...which is fine, even desirable at IMPs, but anathema at MP.

[whereagles]

I think 1n is really silly -- why deliberately wrongside when it's most likely to matter?

If you're going to get into that sort of language, I'll say that not bidding 1NT is really misguided.

 

Why? Because of the following very obvious, experience-based and time tested inequality of importance of features:

 

shape > strength >> stoppers

 

If you don't bid 1NT you're "wrong-siding" the inequality. Stoppers are to be cared for only AFTER suit and level of play has been settled. Example: suppose you bid 1NT and it goes

 

1D (1H) 1NT

 

now pard will

- pass with a bal 12-14. Opps may run the first 5 tricks but you're still favorite to make 7 tricks

- bid 2♦ with an unbal min 11-14

- bid 2♥

- bid 2♥ with a game-going hand and uncertainty about the stopper

- bid 2/3NT with an invite/GF hand and a stopper

 

Bidding can be so easy if you follow the right principles.

[JLOGIC]

double

[JLOGIC]

I think 1n is really silly -- why deliberately wrongside when it's most likely to matter?

If you're going to get into that sort of language, I'll say that not bidding 1NT is really misguided.

 

Why? Because of the following very obvious, experience-based and time tested inequality of importance of features:

 

shape > strength >> stoppers

 

If you don't bid 1NT you're "wrong-siding" the inequality. Stoppers are to be cared for only AFTER suit and level of play has been settled. Example: suppose you bid 1NT and it goes

 

1D (1H) 1NT

 

now pard will

- pass with a bal 12-14. Opps may run the first 5 tricks but you're still favorite to make 7 tricks

- bid 2♦ with an unbal min 11-14

- bid 2♥

- bid 2♥ with a game-going hand and uncertainty about the stopper

- bid 2/3NT with an invite/GF hand and a stopper

 

Bidding can be so easy if you follow the right principles.

What does partner do with Kx or Qxx or AJ doubleton or AQ doubleton of hearts in your system when 3N from his side is the only game that makes?

 

Unfortunately he has no bid now that lets 3N play from his side.

[jdonn]

1NT is one of the worst bids I have ever seen especially since this is mps, even pass is better. Otherwise I think it's close between all the options.

[JLOGIC]

1NT is one of the worst bids I have ever seen especially since this is mps, even pass is better. Otherwise I think it's close between all the options.

What are the alternatives to X iyo?

 

I guess 2D could be ok, but playing matchppoints I'm really eager to play in 1N or a 4-3 spade fit over some stupid diamond fit. Diamonds are not where the money's at when we have a bunch of HCP at MP.

 

I really think X is the only option heh. I know you love to pass with this type of hand but this one is too good I think.

[JLOGIC]

OK i read the thread. I see most people said 1N, we have talked about that.

 

Phil likes pass, I agree that pass and then cuebid over a X would be a reasonable description, but what are the odds that it's going to go:

 

1D 1H p p X ?

 

If partner has short hearts, the opps will often raise. True maybe LHO has a yarb and won't even at this vulnerability, but it seems really likely partner won't have a stiff heart, he'll have a doubleton.

 

In that case, our pass then cuebid mighht well have gone past our top spot of 1N which partner would have bid over a X. If our top spot is not 1N it will often be 2S in the 4-3, which we would have gotten to by Xing.

 

But what about when LHO raises to 2H? We have no bid on 1D 1H p 2H p p ? Double is penalty. We can try 2N for the minors, but we again might have passed our top spot of 2S, and we haven't shown any values yet and might have gotten screwed out of 3N or 5m.

 

And what about 1D 1H p p p ? I view that as extremely likely. Partner with a weak NT will pass (and given their failure to bid 2H, he will often have 3 hearts). That is very bad for us r/w at MP when we could have doubled and played 1N! We might get a lucky +100 vs +90, but more likely we are going +100 vs +120 or +50 vs +90 or something. I will never risk this happening.

 

So I really think pass is not good.

 

I think 2C and 2H are just wild overbids, we have a 4333 10 count with no heart stopper, where are we going? Driving so high at MP with this seems like suicide, again my main goal is to just get a nice plus in 1N or 2S on this hand. I have no other goals.

 

I see the biggest downside of double as being we might get to 4S when it's wrong. That's a risk I'm willing to take, my hand is quite good and they overcalled so partner is unlikely to have a GF opposite a negative double. If it does happen, who knows maybe I luck out and 4S is my top spot. Generally this hand will be us playing a partial and I want to guarantee that it's 1N or 2S and not 1H or 2D or 3D or whatever.

[jdonn]

1NT is one of the worst bids I have ever seen especially since this is mps, even pass is better. Otherwise I think it's close between all the options.

What are the alternatives to X iyo?

 

I guess 2D could be ok, but playing matchppoints I'm really eager to play in 1N or a 4-3 spade fit over some stupid diamond fit. Diamonds are not where the money's at when we have a bunch of HCP at MP.

 

I really think X is the only option heh. I know you love to pass with this type of hand but this one is too good I think.

2♥ is worthy of consideration but it's probably not quite good enough. I like double best since it's the only chance we have to reach 1NT by partner. And yeah I love passing these but this one is too good.

[JLOGIC]

1NT is one of the worst bids I have ever seen especially since this is mps, even pass is better. Otherwise I think it's close between all the options.

What are the alternatives to X iyo?

 

I guess 2D could be ok, but playing matchppoints I'm really eager to play in 1N or a 4-3 spade fit over some stupid diamond fit. Diamonds are not where the money's at when we have a bunch of HCP at MP.

 

I really think X is the only option heh. I know you love to pass with this type of hand but this one is too good I think.

2♥ is worthy of consideration but it's probably not quite good enough. I like double best since it's the only chance we have to reach 1NT by partner. And yeah I love passing these but this one is too good.

aggggggggrooooooooooo

 

I can see bids like 2H red at imps and stuff, but at MP I really believe in just protecting a plus. We don't even have spot cards. I mean, I don't even limit raise with this hand over 1H-1S, doing it over 1D 1H where we have no stopper so our most likely game becomes less likely even with necessary HCP, and we don't even have a real fit is just strange to me.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sk63ht42dk87ca854]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

You pass, LHO passes, partner bids 1♦, RHO bids 1♥, now what do you bid?

 

Playing 5 card majors, strong NT, short club (1♦ promises at least 4)

you may want to play transfers and bid 1S as a transfer to 1NT...