No Keycards? So 6H!

[manudude03]

I've heard people say that the best way to improve slam bidding is to not have any ace asking bids at all, then you can phase in whatever to avoid the slams off 2 aces, it will show you how rarely blackwood is actually NEEDED.

Lol what?

 

Keycard is bid on almost every slam hand at all levels, and when it isn't it's usually because there was a quantitative auction like 2N-4N-6N, or the opponents preempted you out of being about to bid keycard. This is not for no reason, keycard is absolutely vital to slam bidding, GL trying to cuebid your way into every slam correctly.

I hope you aren't trying to suggest that slam bidding is (nearly) impossible without it. I also didn't suggest (or mean to) that you will bid every slam accurately, merely that blackwood is only 1 of the ways of reaching slam and not some "you're not allowed to bid a making slam because you didn't use blackwood" tool. It's not like blackwood gets you out of every bad slam too.

 

How often have you bid blackwood, went to slam missing 1 and gone off because partner has the wrong card?

Or even bidding slam with all 5 key cards going off because there simply aren't enough tricks?

 

I realise that your answer is going to be a fair bit lower than a lot of people, so think about it in the context of lower levels (flights B+C etc)

 

I could mention a hand a couple of years ago where one side all 4 aces and kings, ♥Q (5-3 fit) and 10 tricks was the limit, if you used blackwood, as almost the entire field did, oops.

Simply cuebidding (and using something like turbo or culbertson) will get you out of a lot of the bad slams (not all of them obviously).

 

In grand slam bidding admittedly blackwood is going to make life a lot easier, but it's not to say it's impossible to bid any good grands cuebidding, it would mean missing a lot more of them.

[bucky]

I do not understand why I would bid 3♠ first. I have no spades! Please explain.

 

From another post, it appears 3♠ is a splinter but I need a spade to splinter yes? or is it ok to "lie"?

I think you may have misunderstood the meaning of "shortness" that a splinter bid shows. "Shortness" means 0 or 1 cards, so you can certainly make splinter bid with a void. It is true that most of splinter bids are made with a singleton not void, but that is due to the fact that singletons come up more often than voids, not because voids being ineligible for splinter bids.

[hanp]

I played a lot of left handed tennis but it didn't improve my footwork much.

[JLOGIC]

I hope you aren't trying to suggest that slam bidding is (nearly) impossible without it.

Yes I am suggesting the reasonably consistently good slam bidding is nearly impossible without playing keycard. It would be a huge handicap.

 

All of your points are valid points for why you should not bid keycard before you know that you have enough values for slam, or that you aren't off the AK of some suit.

 

I was not suggesting that keycard is the only tool to bid slam, but if possible it should always be the final step. Yes, sometimes you are too high because they preempted or the auction got preempted and you had to cuebid, but most slam auctions should be ending in keycard. You know you have the suits controlled, you know you have the values, and you then bid keycard.

 

Since the last step is such a common and important step in slam bidding, and especially grand slam bidding, I would never want to be without keycard. Sure it's doable with a lot of skill and judgement to function, but it's much harder and less accurate than keycard.

 

I see a lot of threads now where the time has come to keycard, and people keep cuebidding. This is as big of a mistake as the people who just bid keycard too much/when it's wrong.

 

Hanp's recent thread is a good example. You hold:

 

Axx K KJxx KT98x. The auction goes:

 

1C-(1S)-2D(showing hearts)

2H-2S

2N-3C

3D-3S

4C-4D

?

 

Now I don't recall seeing anyone suggest bidding keycard at this point. People wanted to cuebid. This is absolutely horrible. We know we are going to slam, we know we have the values/controls/fit/source of tricks. This is a baby hand at this point, bid 4N and if you have them all ask for the queen and if you have that bid 7. Nothing to it. But people who cuebid 4H have now trapped their partner. They have trapped themselves. They are going to miss 7.

 

Yes, you can always come up with some auction where you don't bid keycard but can still bid 7 and it's reasonable. But it's very hard, theres a lot of uncertainty about everything and you can't figure it all out. At best, you judge and guess very well and get to a grand that is just baby if someone will bid keycard.

 

I would say almost all auctions hit a point where the fit is known, the tricks are known, the values are known, the controls are known, and it's just time to bring out keycard, but many on this forum are too "expert" for that and just continue to cuebid blindly, and that is a huge flaw in ones slam bidding.

 

All your post indicated was that it's bad to bid keycard if you don't have the combined values to make a slam. Well obviously! Without the combined values, you should not bid slam no matter how many keycards you have. That doesn't mean you should give up on keycard, or that keycard is not extremely vital to all slam bidding at all levels of bridge.

[ONEferBRID]

I couln't agree more...with Justin .

 

J-Lo writes:

 

I see a lot of threads now where the time has come to keycard, and people keep cuebidding. This is as big of a mistake as the people who just bid keycard too much/when it's wrong.

 

Hanp's recent thread[ http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=41584] is a good example. You hold:

 

Axx K KJxx KT98x. The auction goes:

 

1C-(1S)-2D(showing hearts)

2H-2S

2N-3C

3D-3S

4C-4D

?

 

Now I don't recall seeing anyone suggest bidding keycard at this point. People wanted to cuebid. This is absolutely horrible.

 

Ummm, Chopped liver here.

Here was my reply to Hanp's example:

 

It seems here that most think RKC is for wimps.

Didn't 3C agree Cl in a GF auction ( set by the 2S! cuebid ) ?

 

Opener with no 2 quick losers in any side-suit should go RKC immediately after 3C.

And do it with Minorwood ( 4C ) in a GF auction.

 

I'm also a fan of the King-rich hands ( such as Han's ) going RKC.

 

Hanp wrote in the final installment:

Thanks for the responses.

 

Partner has J9 AQxxx Ax AQxx so as you can see 7C is very good, but it is not easy to get there unless one of the two bids RKC. I am a little disappointed that there was very little discussion about the problems that 4H can create.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Axx K KJxx KT98x.

 

J9 AQxxx Ax AQxx

 

1C-(1S)-2D(showing hearts)

2H -2S!

2N -3C

4C!( minorwood) - 4H! ( 0 or 3 )

4S! ( cQ-ask) - 4NT ( cQ but no outside K's )

5D! ( what about outside Q's ? ) - 5H ( hQ )

7C

[Zelandakh]

Yes I am suggesting the reasonably consistently good slam bidding is nearly impossible without playing keycard. It would be a huge handicap.

Are you suggesting Fantunes slam bidding is poor? They do not play RKCB but rather Turbo and do indeed cue bid all the way to slam.

 

To the OP, using Blackwood or RKCB with a void is very rarely a good thing to do. It is even less useful on this hand where you need to involve partner in the decision-making process.

[ONEferBRID]

Yes I am suggesting the reasonably consistently good slam bidding is nearly impossible without playing keycard. It would be a huge handicap.

Are you suggesting Fantunes slam bidding is poor? They do not play RKCB but rather Turbo and do indeed cue bid all the way to slam.

 

To the OP, using Blackwood or RKCB with a void is very rarely a good thing to do. It is even less useful on this hand where you need to involve partner in the decision-making process.

TURBO is like RKC, only it is "telling" instead of "asking".

And TURBO probably has more limitations when there is a VOID.

[JLOGIC]

Yes I am suggesting the reasonably consistently good slam bidding is nearly impossible without playing keycard. It would be a huge handicap.

Are you suggesting Fantunes slam bidding is poor? They do not play RKCB but rather Turbo and do indeed cue bid all the way to slam.

 

To the OP, using Blackwood or RKCB with a void is very rarely a good thing to do. It is even less useful on this hand where you need to involve partner in the decision-making process.

They play a convention where you show the number of keycards you have.

[gwnn]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0829482/

[junyi_zhu]

I couln't agree more...with Justin .

 

J-Lo writes:

 

I see a lot of threads now where the time has come to keycard, and people keep cuebidding. This is as big of a mistake as the people who just bid keycard too much/when it's wrong.

 

Hanp's recent thread[ http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=41584] is a good example. You hold:

 

Axx K KJxx KT98x. The auction goes:

 

1C-(1S)-2D(showing hearts)

2H-2S

2N-3C

3D-3S

4C-4D

?

 

Now I don't recall seeing anyone suggest bidding keycard at this point. People wanted to cuebid. This is absolutely horrible.

 

Ummm, Chopped liver here.

Here was my reply to Hanp's example:

 

It seems here that most think RKC is for wimps.

Didn't 3C agree Cl in a GF auction ( set by the 2S! cuebid ) ?

 

Opener with no 2 quick losers in any side-suit should go RKC immediately after 3C.

And do it with Minorwood ( 4C ) in a GF auction.

 

I'm also a fan of the King-rich hands ( such as Han's ) going RKC.

 

Hanp wrote in the final installment:

Thanks for the responses.

 

Partner has J9 AQxxx Ax AQxx so as you can see 7C is very good, but it is not easy to get there unless one of the two bids RKC. I am a little disappointed that there was very little discussion about the problems that 4H can create.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Axx K KJxx KT98x.

 

J9 AQxxx Ax AQxx

 

1C-(1S)-2D(showing hearts)

2H -2S!

2N -3C

4C!( minorwood) - 4H! ( 0 or 3 )

4S! ( cQ-ask) - 4NT ( cQ but no outside K's )

5D! ( what about outside Q's ? ) - 5H ( hQ )

7C

This 4C as RKC is just horrible. Responder hasn't shown any extra value, there is no business for the opener to RKC.

This 7C is actually very biddable:

1C (1S) 2H

2N 3C(gf)

3D(showing 4-5 in minors) 3H(showing value)

3S(cue) 4D(RKC)

4N(two, no CQ) 5D(we have all KC, I have no kings, but still have grand slam interest)

5H(HK) 5N(no SQ, but still grandslam interest, so should at least hold one red queen)

7C(now you can count 13 tricks on reasonable breaks)

 

King rich or not is never a big issue in RKC processes. Sometimes, trick rich or not can be an issue. Still, the fundamentals in slam bidding are still controls and source of tricks. A combination of cuebids and RKC can help to achieve high bidding accuracies.

[hanp]

Why is 3C GF? How do you bid xx AQJxx x QJxxx?

[jdonn]

Because 2♠ was game forcing?

 

Oh nm I see you mean the auction without 2♠. I second you.

[junyi_zhu]

Why is 3C GF? How do you bid xx AQJxx x QJxxx?

2H then 3C over 2NT should be gf. With weaker hands, you can either double first or bid 3H as fit showing jump(more distributional). With your hand, I just bid 3H, it often makes games facing a balanced minimum. Axxx xxx Axx Kxx would offer a reasonable play in 4H. Facing Axxx xx Axx Kxxx, I don't really mind playing 5C.

[hanp]

I think your many "this is best played as" and "this should mean" are very, how shall I put it... provocative. As far as I know, you are not one of the world's leading bridge theoreticians. And even they might have difficulty saying what's best with the same confidence as you do. I think the tone of your posts is quite absurd.

 

Great system by the way, you'd rebid your 5-card heart suit where partner has denied support, instead of bidding your 5-card support for the suit partner opened!

 

Also, when constructing hands for partner, it's not very realistic only to give examples where she has ace-empty in both diamonds and spades. Not realistic, but indeed very convenient when you are promoting an approach where 3C is forcing.

[JLOGIC]

I think your many "this is best played as" and "this should mean" are very, how shall I put it... provocative. As far as I know, you are not one of the world's leading bridge theoreticians. And even they might have difficulty saying what's best with the same confidence as you do. I think the tone of your posts is quite absurd.

 

Great system by the way, you'd rebid your 5-card heart suit where partner has denied support, instead of bidding your 5-card support for the suit partner opened!

 

Also, when constructing hands for partner, it's not very realistic only to give examples where she has ace-empty in both diamonds and spades. Not realistic, but indeed very convenient when you are promoting an approach where 3C is forcing.

He wouldn't rebid his 5 card suit, he would start with a fit jump, fwiw.

[hanp]

Ah ok, I misread. My other comments are still valid.

[gurgistan]

The heart slam depends on trumps. If they are good, then we have 6-7♥. I would rule out splinter and rkcb. Splinter will not give you any information u need or partner needs and worse, one day the opponents believe that you really dont have spades and lead clubs, which u really dont want to happen. Rkcb may strike gold, but often u just have to guess, which u should avoid. If u have agreed that 5♥ asks trump quality that should be used. I think it is not ideal here, but u find correct place more often than never.With 3 honours or equivalent partner should explore 7, with 2 bid 6 and with less it depends on agreements.

I am very interested in the idea of 5♥ asking for trump quality.

 

Presumably, if partner is good he bids 6♥ and passes if poor.

 

Is this a recognized convention or a good commonsense solution to bidding a hand I am having difficulty with?

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

 

What does the leap to the five level in an agreed suit mean?

 

It seem to work akin to a grand slam force but GSF is 5N.

 

Many thanks.

[2Macchiato]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=shat42dakq652ca86]133|100|Scoring: IMP

I open in 3rd seat with 1♦. Regular partner bids 1♥. I bid 4N RKB1430. Partner responds 5♦. I place in 6♥. Opponents are silent throughout.

 

How bad/good was my placing of contract in heart slam?[/hv]

1. Can you guarantee 5 ♥? Probably not if partner has the worst kind of hand (points in Spades for example)

 

2. Should you use RKCB (or any Blackwood (except Voidwood) with a void? undoubtedly NO

 

So, start with 3 ♠ - clearly a splinter (control - potentially a void) and see what partner says - clearly you are hoping for 4 ♣ since a club lead might result in establishing a club winner for the defence to go with the putative trump winner.

 

Partner may - on the other hand - have excellent spades to pitch your club losers (we will assume some early entry to his hand via trump or diamond ruff.

 

Your priority must be however to get some co-operation from partner. It's possible partner may have nothing to add at all - or even at this stage (good trumps nothing else) - so you should probably consider a 2nd effort - 3 ♠ 4♥ 5 ♥ will force him to address the quality of his trumps for slam.

[2Macchiato]

Instead of the Sp splinter, what about using the convention-with-no-name?

 

p   - 1D

1H - 4D! = strong 4h/6d

Excellent point

 

And for those who play Exclusion how about the switch back from partner:

 

3S ♠ Splinter

3N - Asking bid - 4 ♣ singleton (or King) - all other bids RKCB with a VOID guaranteed.

[bucky]

I am very interested in the idea of 5♥ asking for trump quality.

 

Presumably, if partner is good he bids 6♥ and passes if poor.

 

Is this a recognized convention or a good commonsense solution to bidding a hand I am having difficulty with?

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

 

What does the leap to the five level in an agreed suit mean?

 

It seem to work akin to a grand slam force but GSF is 5N.

 

Many thanks.

I don't think this is a "convention". Rather, it is based on logic. When you leap to 5M in a constructive auction, it has to be a slam try, and it shows that you are concerned about *something* for the slam. The trick is figure out what this *something* is. In an uncontested sequence it is often about trump quality, since if you are worried about a specific side suit, you can find out by control cuebid. It can also be asking for control in an only unbid suit. In competitive auction, such as 1♥ (3♠) 5♥, it should be asking partner to bid slam with control in enemy (spade) suit (it follows that 1♥ (3[DP]) 4♠ is a slam try WITH spade control).

 

That being said, I don't think it is right to bid 5♥ on this hand. You have more than one concern: club control, and trump quality. 5♥ might let you find out one but not both. Also, how good is "good"? ♥KQ certainly qualifies (but if partner has KQxxx you can easily miss a grand), what about QJxx? How about ♥J9xx and ♣K? To find out all the information you need, it is best to open an interactive dialog by bidding 3♠ or 4♦.

[2Macchiato]

A lot of these problems regarding the appropriateness of cue bidding and splinters evaporate if you agree that - in principle - you should splinter (and co-operate) with good controls and decent trumps. In other words don't over commit to the 5 level and beyond without the (semblance) of controls in your hand. I'm advocating that, if you have a great 17 count but only one ace you shouldn't be acting too quickly to proceed to the 5 level and, by the same measure, if you have a poor trump holding you end up at the 5 level (or heaven help you, beyond that) with the opponents holding (at least) 2 of the 3 big trump cards.

 

I would never splinter without at least some (if not most) of these features and would expect a good partner to readily cooperate if he or she also held like for like features - rapidly signing off when this does not apply (unless they are forced into cooperation by a second effort). Similarly I would advocate never bidding 1M-4M on side suit controls - it should be reserved for control poor hands of moderate - even poor - counts (in the manner of the TNT raise). Obviously there are no golden rules but the presence of side suit controls is vital to give partner the opportunity to go beyond game. With this in mind partner will only rarely proceed over 1 M - 4 M and only then on an exceptional control rich hand - or one with a significant source of tricks (6-5 shape for example).