help design a strong club system for non-relayers

[hrothgar]

ok. Let me attack this another way. Let's say I was married to these club responses....

 

1D-GF

1H-any 5-7 hcps

1S-any 0-4 hcps

other-GF

 

How would you assign 1D, 1N, 2C, 2D, etc?

I really think that its insane to do this unless you're playing a simple relay structure like symmetric.

 

(Even playing symmetric, the response structure gets complicate)

[bluecalm]

Meckwell simplified base is simple and effective. You can use basically natural bidding using it.

I can write short summary if you are interested.

[straube]

Meckwell simplified base is simple and effective. You can use basically natural bidding using it.

I can write short summary if you are interested.

Sure. Thanks.

[vang]

http://www.melodiccanada.com/dreamland/bbs.../0912/1389.html

"Simplified Version of Meckwell Precision System

Simplified Meckwell Precision system (for students)"

[bluecalm]

It goes like this:

 

1♣ - 1♦ = 0-7 any

then 1M is F1 4+ with possible longer minor. 2m is NF 16-21; 2H is Kokish, 2S is strong with spades

 

1♣ - 1♥ is 8-11 any shape

 

1♣ - 1♠ = 12+, 5+♠

1♣ - 1NT = 12+, 5+♥

 

After those you just bid as in normal 2/1 system having additional space after 1♠.

It's a bit easier here as your side has 28+hcp so you are in slam zone.

 

1♣ - 2♣/2♦ = 12+, 5+ natural

1♣ - 2♥ = 14+ balanced

1♣ - 2NT = 12-13 balanced (then system on as after 2NT opening)

 

1♣ - 2♠ = 12+, any 4-4-4-1 then it's simple to design system to show all the shortnesses and 12-13,14-15, 16+ ranges. (For example 2NT ask, 3♣ = either singleton D, or minimum with singleton S, 3D = singleton H, 3H singleton S 14+, 3S/3NT/4C = singleton club 12-13,14-15,16+; next step after 3C/3D/3H is range ask).

 

The biggest problem in the whole system is:

 

1♣ - 1♥

2♥ as it's quite high. To solve this problem you can try various things. One is to put all the hands with 5spades to 1♠ (making it 8+ instead of 12+) this way you have operational 2♠ bid here (Greco Hampson play that way). Other way I thought of is using:

 

1♣ - 1♥

2NT is 6H-4m and jumps to 3m are 5H-5m; both bids with minimum strength (16-19); and bidding 1NT with any 5-3-3-2 (with 5 hearts) so 2H rebid is 6+ hearts or 5H-4m without 6M-4m and 5-5 (unless slammish).

 

You honestly don't need any more conventions just bid natural after establishing GF.

[straube]

Thanks. I like the idea of using 1S as 8+ (seems too infrequent otherwise) but I might want to rearrange to...

 

1D-0-7

1H-8-11 any

1S-8+, H

1N-12+, S

2C-12+, D

2D-12+, C

 

I'm still thinking that most of these structures let responder give too much direction (take up too much space).

[bluecalm]

1S-8+, H

1N-12+, S

2C-12+, D

2D-12+, C

 

Not sure about witching minors. Switching majors seems like a good idea (to have more space with hearts).

Maybe even in basic version:

 

1♣ -

1♠ = hearts, 12+

1NT = spades, 12+

 

would be an improvement.

[Zelandakh]

These are the optimised responses to 1C for right-siding a contract while making sure that each bid contains the "correct" number of hands (latter not so important for non-relayers):-

1D = any non-GF

1H = 4+ spades, GF (not qualified for 2H or 2S)

1S = any hand without a 4 card major, GF

1N = heart 1-suiter, or hearts and clubs, GF

2C = hearts and diamonds, GF

2D = 4-5 hearts, balanced, 2-3 spades, GF

or 4-5 hearts, 0-1 spades, 4441/5440

2H = 4-5 spades, balanced, 2-3 hearts, GF

2S = 4-5 spades, 0-1 hearts, 4441/5440, GF

 

They were designed for a relay system but can be adapted to non-relay methods with a bit of work. The same applies to Meckwell responses, you can play them as written without using the following relay structure. Even without playing relays it can be helpful to use the next step to show extra strength and other bids as natural and minimum (probably 16-18). This makes it easier for Responder to judge when to make a slam try above game when they have extras.

[hrothgar]

These are the optimised responses to 1C for right-siding a contract while making sure that each bid contains the "correct" number of hands (latter not so important for non-relayers):-

1D = any non-GF

1H = 4+ spades, GF (not qualified for 2H or 2S)

1S = any hand without a 4 card major, GF

1N = heart 1-suiter, or hearts and clubs, GF

2C = hearts and diamonds, GF

2D = 4-5 hearts, balanced, 2-3 spades, GF

or 4-5 hearts, 0-1 spades, 4441/5440

2H = 4-5 spades, balanced, 2-3 hearts, GF

2S = 4-5 spades, 0-1 hearts, 4441/5440, GF

 

They were designed for a relay system but can be adapted to non-relay methods with a bit of work. The same applies to Meckwell responses, you can play them as written without using the following relay structure. Even without playing relays it can be helpful to use the next step to show extra strength and other bids as natural and minimum (probably 16-18). This makes it easier for Responder to judge when to make a slam try above game when they have extras.

Optimized for what style of strong club opening...

 

I can virtually guaruntee that a set of optimal responses opposite a Blue Club style 1♣ opening doesn't work nearly as well opposite a MOSCITO strong club and vice versa.

[PrecisionL]

I have spent a lot of time studying the various 1♣ strong systems.

 

It does not make sense from a frequency or useful space design to play 1♣ - 1♥ = 8-11 and higher bids as 12+. If you must separate these ranges, they should be reversed.

 

Keylime and I have found the following to work very well.

 

Responses to 1♣ (16+ hcp or the distributional equivalent):

 

1♦ = 0-8 hcp (8 without an A or K)

1♥ = 4+♠ (unbalanced) , or 11-14 hcp & balanced

1♠ = 4+♥ (unbalanced)

1NT = 54 or better in the majors, or 44(41), or 5m440 with 11+ & 4+ controls

2♣  = 1 or both minors (denies a 4 cd M)

2♦ = 8-10 balanced

2♥ = 5♥332

2♠ = 5♠332

2NT = 15+ hcp

3X = 4441 hands & 8-10 hcp

[bluecalm]

It does not make sense from a frequency or useful space design to play 1♣ - 1♥ = 8-11 and higher bids as 12+. If you must separate these ranges, they should be reversed.

 

Why ?

If the system is not relay based then space for relays isn't the only criterium.

The whole idea is that 1♥ 8-11 is very frequent and bidding after this is simple while higher bids put you in slam zone so it doesn't hurt that much to lose space.

 

I don't know how much less frequent 12+ hands are comparing to 8-11 hands but there is the same amount of space after 1♥ than after all other bids combined (I am not talking about relay space; i am talking about ability to convey information by both sides).

Another thing is also that 1♣ is very often strong bal hand and it's important for this hand to be able to bid 1NT after 1H so other hand could start describing itself (in general distributional hand should describe itself to bal hand, not other way around).

 

1♦ = 0-8 hcp (8 without an A or K)

1♥ = 4+♠ (unbalanced) , or 11-14 hcp & balanced

1♠ = 4+♥ (unbalanced)

1NT = 54 or better in the majors, or 44(41), or 5m440 with 11+ & 4+ controls

2♣  = 1 or both minors (denies a 4 cd M)

2♦ = 8-10 balanced

2♥ = 5♥332

2♠ = 5♠332

2NT = 15+ hcp

3X = 4441 hands & 8-10 hcp

 

Sweet and all but you need a lot of agreements to untagle those.

Advantage of 1H = 8-11, others = 12+ natural is that you can just bid naturally.

 

OP says:

 

Remembering that they are not interested in relaying

 

It seems to me that those won't fit.

[PrecisionL]

Relays are not necessary for follow-ons and the major suits are ID early.

 

Responding to 1♣ (16+):

 

0-7 hcp = 46 %

 

8-11 hcp = 37.5 % (not adjusting for poor 8 hcp hands that respond 1♦)

 

12+ hcp = 16.5 %

 

I guess you pay your money and take your choice. :(

Edited: 9/21/10 2106 EDT

 

0-4 hcp = 17 %

 

5-7 hcp = 29 %

 

Probability estimated by numerical summation of most probable distributions for 16 - 30 hcp by 1 ♣ Opener.

[Flameous]

1♣ -

 

1♦ = 0-5 or 12+ (1♥ asks, other bids tend to show minimum)

Others natural or preferably transfers.

It's true that it's not so simple as typical in strong club cause now you have some inv. sequences, but responders hand is limited and almost GF. You could even play like 2/1 system w/ F1NT over 1♥/♠ which would be funny :)

 

2♥ and up can be used to show some specific, mainly you want to unload all 4441s w/ different strengths. Probably want a bid to show solid suit too, it's pretty useful once in a blue moon when it comes up.

[straube]

Relays are not necessary for follow-ons and the major suits are ID early.

 

Rseponding to 1♣ (16+):

 

0-7 hcp = 46 %

 

8-11 hcp = 37.5 % (not adjusting for poor 8 hcp hands that respond 1♦)

 

12+ hcp = 16.5 %

 

I guess you pay your money and take your choice. :)

I ran through 150 hands recently for

.....1D-GF bal or M or M/m

.....1H-semipositive (5-7 or so)

.....1S-negative (0-4 or so)

.....all else GF other

 

and got...

 

.....1D-30%

.....1H-29%

.....1S-29%

.....1N-4%

.....2C-3%

etc.

 

which

1) looks not quite right to me because a prior sample I'd run had something like 25% negatives and my 1H and 1S totals (58%) are higher than the 46% you got for your 1D response. Some of the difference is from how we tabulate results (I GF with most 8 pt hands)

 

2) seems to me a better use of 1-level space than is true for Meckwell Light. This is probably even more so if the results are more like...

 

.....1D-33%

.....1H-31%

.....1S-25%

.....1N-4%

.....2C-3%

 

I don't care for Meckwell Light because I prefer to find the right strain before learning if partner has extras. Seems like 1H has to be the 8-11 range or you would wind up with something like

 

.....1D-46%

.....1H-16.5%

.....1S-guessing 4%

[hrothgar]

Years back, I ran a lot of simulations studying the frequency of different responses opposite a 1st seat MOSCITO strong club opening. (Said sim ignored direct seat competitive bidding)

 

Here's what I ended up with

 

Game Forcing hands: 36.2%

Semi Positive hands: 45%

Double Negatives: 18.8%

[Zelandakh]

These are the optimised responses to 1C for right-siding a contract while making sure that each bid contains the "correct" number of hands (latter not so important for non-relayers):-

Optimized for what style of strong club opening...

 

I can virtually guaruntee that a set of optimal responses opposite a Blue Club style 1♣ opening doesn't work nearly as well opposite a MOSCITO strong club and vice versa.

Optimised for right-siding a contract. I did include this detail in the previous post. It does not matter whether the strong club is 15+ or 17+ for this criteria. Naturally right-siding may not be the most important aspect for a strong club system design.

[akhare]

Years back, I ran a lot of simulations studying the frequency of different responses opposite a 1st seat MOSCITO strong club opening. (Said sim ignored direct seat competitive bidding)

 

Here's what I ended up with

 

Game Forcing hands: 36.2%

Semi Positive hands: 45%

Double Negatives: 18.8%

Richard,

 

Do you have the dealer script lying around? Unfortunately, the version of dealer.exe I managed to locate doesn't support altcount and I tried to approximate the QP count using the script below.

 

The numbers I got back are very similar to yours:

 

GF: 34.27%

SP: 44.54%

DN: 21.9%

 

west1c = hcp(west)>=9

 

pointcount 3 2 1 0

eastGF=hcp(east) >=6

eastSP=hcp(east) >= 3 and hcp(east) <=5

eastDN=hcp(east) >= 0 and hcp(east) <=2

 

condition

west1c and (eastGF or eastSP or eastDN)

 

produce

10000

 

action

frequency (hcp(west), 9, 20), frequency (hcp(east), 0, 15)

[hrothgar]

I THINK this is reasonable accurate (this version doesn't have slam point adjustments for 10 card suits)

 

(Guests just left my first annual Beer, Bison, and Botulism bash... I am somewhat buzzed, stuffed to the gills, and have neither the time nor the inclination to check the code)

 

 

######### Definition - Opening Points

 

# 11 is the index for c13

# This function allows the user to define valuations for cacluating HCP

# Most hand evaluation is performed used a modified version of the

# 4 Aces Point Count.(Ace = 3, King = 2, ...)

# All values are multiplied by 100 to avoid fractions

 

#altcount 11 300 200 100 50 20

 

############## STRONG OPENINGS

 

one_club =

 

(

hcp(north)>=17

#or

#c13(north) >=1000

or

(hcp(north)>=15 and cccc(north)>=1600)

or

(hcp(north)==14 and cccc(north)>=1900)

or

(hcp(north)==13 and cccc(north)>=2000)

or

 

(

hcp(north)>=15 and shape(north, any 4333 + any 4432 + any 5332 + any 5422)

#and

#c13(north) >= 900

)

 

)

 

#####

#Opening strength defines the minimum strength for a limited opening bid

#####

 

opening_strength =

(

(

cccc(north) - 25 * shape(north, any 4441 + any 5440) >= 1050

 

or hcp(north) >= 11

)

 

# and

# c13(north) >= 600

)

 

and not

 

one_club

 

#MOSCITO Opening structure

 

#################### SINGLE SUITED PREEMPTS

#################### MAJORS

 

four_diamonds =

 

(

(

spades(north) >= 8 and

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) == 2

)

 

or

 

(

spades(north) == 7 and

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) + hascard(north,QS) == 3

)

)

 

and

 

hascard(north,AC) + hascard(north,KC) +

hascard(north,AD) + hascard(north,KD) +

hascard(north,AH) + hascard(north,KH) <=1

 

four_spades =

 

hcp(north) <= 9

 

and

 

(

(

spades(north) >= 7 and

 

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) +

hascard(north,QS) + hascard(north, JS) >= 3

)

 

or

 

spades(north) >= 8

)

 

and not four_diamonds

 

three_spades =

 

spades(north) >= 6

 

and

 

(

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) +

hascard(north, QS) + hascard(north, JS) >= 2

)

 

and

 

(

hearts(north) <=1 or

diamonds(north) <=1 or

clubs(north) <= 1

)

 

and

 

hcp(north) <= 9

 

and not four_diamonds

 

and not four_spades

 

four_clubs =

 

(

(

hearts(north) >= 8 and

hascard(north,AH) + hascard(north,KH) == 2

)

or

 

(

hearts(north) == 7 and

hascard(north,AH) + hascard(north,KH) + hascard(north,QH) == 3

)

)

 

and

 

hascard(north,AC) + hascard(north,KC) +

hascard(north,AD) + hascard(north,KD) +

hascard(north,AS) + hascard(north,KS) <=1

 

four_hearts =

 

hcp(north) <= 9

 

and

 

(

(

hearts(north) >= 7 and

 

hascard(north, AH) + hascard(north, KH) +

hascard(north,QH) + hascard(north, JH) >= 3

)

 

or

 

spades(north) >= 8

)

 

and not four_clubs

 

three_hearts =

 

hearts(north) >= 6

 

and

 

(

hascard(north, AH) + hascard(north, KH) +

hascard(north, QH) + hascard(north, JH) >= 2

)

 

and

 

(

spades(north) <=1 or

diamonds(north) <=1 or

clubs(north) <= 1

)

 

and

 

hcp(north) <= 9

 

and not four_clubs

 

and not four_hearts

 

############## MINORS

 

three_nt =

 

hcp(north) <= 9

 

and

 

(

(

clubs(north) >= 8

and

hascard(north,AS) + hascard(north,KS) +

hascard(north,AH) + hascard(north,KH) +

hascard(north,AD) + hascard(north,KD) <= 1

)

 

or

 

(

diamonds(north) >= 8

and

hascard(north,AS) + hascard(north,KS) +

hascard(north,AH) + hascard(north,KH) +

hascard(north,AC) + hascard(north,KC) <= 1

)

)

 

three_clubs =

 

clubs(north) >= 6

 

and

 

hascard(north, AC) + hascard(north, KC) + hascard(north, QC) == 2 and

 

hascard(north, AD) + hascard(north, KD) +

hascard(north, AH) + hascard(north, KH) +

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) == 0 and

 

hcp(north) <=9

 

and not three_nt

 

three_diamonds =

 

diamonds(north) >= 6

 

and

 

hascard(north, AD) + hascard(north, KD) + hascard(north, QD) == 2 and

 

hascard(north, AC) + hascard(north, KC) +

hascard(north, AH) + hascard(north, KH) +

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) == 0 and

 

hcp(north) <=9

 

and not three_nt

 

two_nt =

 

(clubs(north) >=6 and

 

hascard(north, AC) + hascard(north, KC) + hascard(north, QC) +

hascard(north, JC) == 2

 

and

 

hascard(north, AD) + hascard(north, KD) +

hascard(north, AH) + hascard(north, KH) +

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) == 0

 

and

 

hascard(north, QD) + hascard(north, QH) + hascard(north, QS) <= 1

 

and

 

not three_clubs)

 

or

 

(

diamonds(north) >=6 and

 

hascard(north, AD) + hascard(north, KD) + hascard(north, QD) +

hascard(north, JD) == 2

 

and

 

hascard(north, AC) + hascard(north, KC) +

hascard(north, AH) + hascard(north, KH) +

hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) == 0 and

hascard(north, QC) + hascard(north, QH) + hascard(north, QS) <= 1 and

not three_diamonds

)

and not three_nt

 

preempts =

four_spades or

four_clubs or

three_spades or

four_hearts or

four_clubs or

three_hearts or

three_diamonds or

three_clubs or

three_nt or

two_nt

 

###############################

## Weak Opening Bids

###############################

 

two_diamonds =

 

not opening_strength and

hcp(north) <= 12

 

#and c13(north) >= 325

 

and

 

shape(north, any 4432, any 54xx, any 55xx, any 65xx) and

clubs(north) <= 3 and

diamonds(north) >=4

 

two_hearts =

 

not opening_strength and

hcp(north) <= 12 and

 

#c13(north) >= 325 and

 

shape(north, any 4432, any 54xx, any 55xx, any 65xx) and

hearts(north) >= 4 and

 

(

spades(north) >= 4 or

clubs(north) >= 5

)

 

two_spades =

 

not opening_strength and

hcp(north) <= 12 and

 

#c13(north) >= 325

 

(

(

shape(north, any 6322, any 6331, any 7222) and

spades(north) >=6

)

 

or

 

(

spades(north) >=4 and clubs(north) >=5

and hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) + hascard(north, QS) >= 1

)

)

 

############## LIMITED OPENINGS

 

##### Pre-Definitions

 

bad_spades = hascard(north, AS) + hascard(north, KS) + hascard(north,QS) == 0

bad_hearts = hascard(north, AH) + hascard(north, KH) + hascard(north,QH) == 0

balanced = shape(north, any 4432, any 5332, any 4333)

 

########

 

two_clubs =

opening_strength

and not preempts

 

and

 

(

 

(

clubs(north) >= 6 and

spades(north) < 4 and

hearts(north) < 3

)

 

or

 

(

clubs(north) >= 6 and

spades(north) == 4 and

bad_spades

)

 

or

 

(

clubs(north) >= 6 and

hearts(north) == 4 and

bad_hearts

)

 

)

 

one_notrump =

 

opening_strength and

 

(

 

(

balanced and not

shape(north, 5xxx, x5xx, 44xx, 4x4x, 4xx4, x44x, x4x4)

)

 

or

 

(

hearts(north) == 4 and

balanced and

(hcp(north) == 11 or hcp(north) == 12)

)

 

or

 

(

spades(north) == 4 and

balanced and

hearts(north) <= 3 and

(hcp(north) == 13 or hcp(north) == 14)

)

 

)

 

one_spade =

opening_strength

and not preempts

and not one_notrump

 

and

 

diamonds(north) >= 4 and

not one_notrump and

hearts(north) <4 and

spades(north) <4

 

or

 

(

 

diamonds(north) >=6 and

 

(

(spades(north) == 4 and bad_spades) or

(hearts(north) == 4 and bad_hearts)

)

 

)

 

one_heart =

 

opening_strength and

not two_clubs and

not one_notrump and

not one_spade and

 

(

 

(

spades(north) == 4 and

spades(north) > hearts(north)

)

 

or

 

(

spades(north) >= 5 and

spades(north) >= hearts(north)

)

 

)

 

one_diamond =

 

opening_strength and

not two_clubs and

not one_notrump and

not one_spade and

not one_heart

 

and

 

hearts(north) >= 4

 

and not

 

(balanced and hcp(north) <= 11)

 

advance =

 

hcp(south) >= 5 and

hcp(south) <= 10 and

spades(south) >=4 and

spades(south) <= 5 and

hearts(south) >= 4 and

hearts(south) <= 5

 

and diamonds(south) >= 2

 

#and

 

#(

#clubs(south) >= 3 or

#diamonds(south) >= 3

#)

 

***** =

 

(

spades(north) <= 2 and

hearts(north) <= 2 and

diamonds(north) >= 5

)

 

##########

 

condition

 

one_heart and spades(south) == 6

 

action

 

average hascard(south, 2S) and hascard(south, 3S)

#average hascard(south, 3C) and hascard(south, 2C),

#average hascard(south, 2C) and hascard(south, 2D),

#average hascard(south, 2C) and hascard(south, 2S)

 

#average "advance" advance

#

#printall

#

#average "*****" *****

[bluecalm]

0-7 hcp = 46 %

 

8-11 hcp = 37.5 % (not adjusting for poor 8 hcp hands that respond 1♦)

 

12+ hcp = 16.5 %

 

This is actually argument for playing 1H = 8-11, other 12+ (or even better 1H = 8-11 without 5 spades, 1S = 8+, 5+spades, other 12+) not against it.

 

I have a feeling that discussion here is not very constructive. Everybody is going to stick to their favourite system design.

My opinion is that semi-positives are both complicated and bad (because establishing GF in comp auctions is the most important thing). Having negative about 1D is not even worth considering. As to higher responses there are many possible schemes which are decent but almost all of them require a lot of memory work to make it playable.

Meckwell light is very simple to play, allows you to have short auctions with game hands and even if it doesn't get you to all the best spots all the time it's not much worse than the most sophisticated system on the market in this respect.