help design a strong club system for non-relayers

[straube]

Some of my friends use the following structure after 1C

 

.....1D-0-7 or 8+ 4441s

..........1H-stronger

...............1S-second negative

.....1H-8+ spades

.....1S-8-13 bal

.....1N-8+ clubs

.....2C-8+ diamonds

.....2D-8+ hearts

.....2N-14+ bal

.....other-natural semipositives

 

I dislike this because (for example) it leaves too much room for S+ and too little for H+. It also leaves S1 for opener to show a fit (which sacrifices S1 for when they don't immediately find a fit).

 

Remembering that they are not interested in relaying, I thought to recommend something like...

 

.....1D-8+ GF other

..........natural

.....1H-5-7 any

..........1S-artificial GF

..........other-natural and limited

.....1S-0-4

..........2C-artificial GF

.....1N-8+ 5+/4+ majors

.....2C-8+ six diamonds

.....2D-8+ six hearts

.....2H-8+ six spades

.....2S-8+ six clubs

.....other-4441s

 

Keeping in mind that both utility and simplicity are goals, any suggestions? I'd also be interested in Meckwell Light if someone has a good description.

Thanks

[Siegmund]

...I dislike this because (for example) it leaves too much room for S+ and too little for H+...

 

Well, why not explore the most obvious fix for that?

 

1D = hearts, strength undefined

1H = spades, strength undefined

1S = negative without a major.

 

Opener rebids 1C-1D-1H or 1C-1H-1S if he's willing to be dropped there by a bust (for instance, opener had a strong notrump pattern), otherwise bids his own suit.

 

I explored this in the context of a system where 1C=15+ balanced or 18+ unbalanced (which turned out to have too low of a frequency for the 1C bid for me to be happy with the rest of the system.) It might be somewhat less appealing if it leads to more wrongsiding than it does transferring. Similarly it might be more appealing if 1C included more weak/medium balanced hands, or even a fullfledged 2-way club.

 

Incidentally, are we only concerned with your friends' tastes and memory capacity, or also with system regulations?

[akhare]

Actually, since they aren't relaying, how about:

 

1D: Any SP

......1H is GF

..........Add continuations of choice

 

1H: GF spades OR GF clubs OR bal 8-13

......1S asks

..........1N = GF spades

..........2C = GF clubs

..........2D+: Bal hands, a la Stayman

1S: Junk hand

1N: GF Hearts

2C: GF Diamonds

2D: GF 4441

2H: 14+ bal

 

BTW, I am guessing that they require 5+ for the major suit showing responses..

[straube]

Actually, since they aren't relaying, how about:

 

1D: Any SP

......1H is GF

..........Add continuations of choice

 

1H: GF spades OR GF clubs OR bal 8-13

......1S asks

..........1N = GF spades

..........2C = GF clubs

..........2D+: Bal hands, a la Stayman

1S: Junk hand

1N: GF Hearts

2C: GF Diamonds

2D: GF 4441

2H: 14+ bal

 

BTW, I am guessing that they require 5+ for the major suit showing responses..

Yeah, they want 5-cd majors.

 

That structure gives more room to the semipositives and less to the GF hands.

I would be concerned that after 1C-1H opener is almost compelled to rebid 1S to find out what sort of hand responder has. If instead opener showed his own suit (say 1C-1H, 2H) then responder would have to show what he initially had as well as react to opener's suit.

 

I kind of like your idea of using 1N to show a 5-cd major.

 

Maybe

 

1D-GF other

1H-semipositive

1S-neg

1N-GF 5H

2C-GF 5S

2D-GF 6C

2H-GF 6D

[blahonga]

How about

 

1D negative

1H bal or 4441

1S hearts

1N spades

2C clubs

2D diamonds

 

or

 

1D negative

1H no 5+major or 6+minor

1S hearts

1N spades

2C 6+ clubs

2D 6+ diamonds

[petterb]

Some of my friends use the following structure after 1C

 

.....1D-0-7 or 8+ 4441s

..........1H-stronger

...............1S-second negative

.....1H-8+ spades

.....1S-8-13 bal

.....1N-8+ clubs

.....2C-8+ diamonds

.....2D-8+ hearts

.....2N-14+ bal

.....other-natural semipositives

From an old (2006) Meckwell CC:

 

1H 8+ 5+ spades OR 11-13 balanced

1S 8+ 5+ hearts

1N 8+ 5+ clubs

2C 8+ 5+ diamonds

2D 8-10 balanced

2H 14+ balanced

[Free]

If you don't want relays, wtp, respond your number of controls and bid natural...

[bhtf]

like that following structure after 1C (15+), a little "spécial",

but very comfortable for me :

 

.....1D 0-5 or FG 9+

.....1H by 4+, 1S by 4+, all 5-9 & not GF

.....2C by 5+, 2D by 5+, all 6-8 & not GF

.....1N-flat 6-8H, not forcing

.....2H 4144, 2S 1444 : 6-8

.....2N 55+ minor 6-9

.....others : solid AKQ by 6+

 

and after 1C-1D :

.....1H by 4+, 1S by 4+, all 15+ & not forcing

.....2C by 5+, 2D by 5+, all 15+ & not forcing

.....1N-flat 15-20, or 444 short major 17-20, not forcing

.....2H 4+, 2S 4+, 3C 5+, 3D 5+ : all GF

.....2NT GF, 25-27 or 31+

.....3H 4144, 3S 1444 : GF

.....3NT 28-30

 

other flat hands openings:

1NT or 1D : 12-14 [*]

2NT 21-22

2D Multi then NT : 23-24

 

[*] or white : 1NT 11-13

[*] or red : 1NT 14-16, no S 4 (like Chagas)

 

simplicity ? i think so, but ........ )))

friendly all

[straube]

Some of my friends use the following structure after 1C

 

.....1D-0-7 or 8+ 4441s

..........1H-stronger

...............1S-second negative

.....1H-8+ spades

.....1S-8-13 bal

.....1N-8+ clubs

.....2C-8+ diamonds

.....2D-8+ hearts

.....2N-14+ bal

.....other-natural semipositives

From an old (2006) Meckwell CC:

 

1H 8+ 5+ spades OR 11-13 balanced

1S 8+ 5+ hearts

1N 8+ 5+ clubs

2C 8+ 5+ diamonds

2D 8-10 balanced

2H 14+ balanced

I like Meckwell, but the continuations are probably more complex than they would like.

[straube]

...I dislike this because (for example) it leaves too much room for S+ and too little for H+...

 

Well, why not explore the most obvious fix for that?

 

1D = hearts, strength undefined

1H = spades, strength undefined

1S = negative without a major.

 

Opener rebids 1C-1D-1H or 1C-1H-1S if he's willing to be dropped there by a bust (for instance, opener had a strong notrump pattern), otherwise bids his own suit.

 

I explored this in the context of a system where 1C=15+ balanced or 18+ unbalanced (which turned out to have too low of a frequency for the 1C bid for me to be happy with the rest of the system.) It might be somewhat less appealing if it leads to more wrongsiding than it does transferring. Similarly it might be more appealing if 1C included more weak/medium balanced hands, or even a fullfledged 2-way club.

 

Incidentally, are we only concerned with your friends' tastes and memory capacity, or also with system regulations?

They'd be concerned about system regulations.

 

I think the difficulty with that structure is that it doesn't create low level forces.

For instance 1C-1D, 1H seems like it needs to be a forcing bid (whatever its meaning).

[straube]

How about

 

1D negative

1H bal or 4441

1S hearts

1N spades

2C clubs

2D diamonds

 

or

 

1D negative

1H no 5+major or 6+minor

1S hearts

1N spades

2C 6+ clubs

2D 6+ diamonds

I kind of like those for simplicity. I was hoping, however, to have an immediate semipositive because it ought to help them prepare for competition.

 

One thing they do is...

 

1C-1S (bal 8-13), 1N=exactly 16. With more than 16 they usually bid 2C (stayman/strength ask). They like that they get to play 1N with 16 opposite 8 but I think this sequence could be used for something better.

[hrothgar]

Keeping in mind that both utility and simplicity are goals, any suggestions? I'd also be interested in Meckwell Light if someone has a good description.

Thanks

As I recall, Berkowitz's book has a good treatment of non-relay Precision.

 

Have you considered just pointing your friends at that?

[kayin801]

Keeping in mind that both utility and simplicity are goals, any suggestions?  I'd also be interested in Meckwell Light if someone has a good description.

Thanks

As I recall, Berkowitz's book has a good treatment of non-relay Precision.

 

Have you considered just pointing your friends at that?

My regular partner and I play our club system without relays with Berkowitz-Cohen at its core and love it. It's simple and flexible.

[straube]

Keeping in mind that both utility and simplicity are goals, any suggestions?  I'd also be interested in Meckwell Light if someone has a good description.

Thanks

As I recall, Berkowitz's book has a good treatment of non-relay Precision.

 

Have you considered just pointing your friends at that?

My regular partner and I play our club system without relays with Berkowitz-Cohen at its core and love it. It's simple and flexible.

What's the outline of Berkowitz-Cohen?

[hrothgar]

Keeping in mind that both utility and simplicity are goals, any suggestions?  I'd also be interested in Meckwell Light if someone has a good description.

Thanks

As I recall, Berkowitz's book has a good treatment of non-relay Precision.

 

Have you considered just pointing your friends at that?

My regular partner and I play our club system without relays with Berkowitz-Cohen at its core and love it. It's simple and flexible.

What's the outline of Berkowitz-Cohen?

It's ably documented in a book by Berkowitz and (Manley?)

 

http://www.icanfixyouremail.com/Berkowitz_Precision.html

[straube]

I looked at Berkowitz-Cohen and I don't think that their initial responses are better than what my friends play now. Berkowitz-Cohen wrong-sides everything.

 

A compensating advantage to B-C is that opener's next bid is not acceptance of a transfer. But one could use 1C-2C (diamonds), 2D (hearts) as does Meckwell.

[Diogen_]

Strong Club - FG+ responses:

 

1D: NEG

1H: FG+, 5+S

1S: FG+, 5+H

1NT: FG+, 5+M-4+M

2C: FG+, (4441); 4M-5+m (2D ask inv Ms)

2D: FG+, BAL

2H: FG+, 5+C, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2S: FG+, 5+D, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2NT+ = whatever you like

 

Strength solution after 2 level responses: 2NT=any S/T, rest nat w/o S/T

 

 

Strong Club Semi-Positive responses:

 

1D: NEG; INV, w/o 4+M

1H: INV+, 4+S

1S: INV+, 4+H

1NT: INV+, 4+M-4+M

2C: FG+, 8-10; 14+, BAL, w/o 4M

2D: FG+, 11-13, BAL, w/o 4+M

2H: FG+, 5+C, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2S: FG+, 5+D, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2NT+ = whatever you like

[straube]

Strong Club - FG+ responses:

 

1D: NEG

1H: FG+, 5+S

1S: FG+, 5+H

1NT: FG+, 5+M-4+M

2C: FG+, BAL (2D STAY, inv Ms)

2D: FG+, (4441)

2H: FG+, 5+C, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2S: FG+, 5+D, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2NT+ = whatever you like

 

Strength solution after 2 level responses: 2NT=any S/T, rest nat w/o S/T

 

 

Strong Club Semi-Positive responses:

 

1D: NEG; INV, w/o 4+M

1H: INV+, 4+S

1S: INV+, 4+H

1NT: INV+, 4+M-4+M

2C: FG+, 8-10; 14+, BAL, w/o 4M

2D: FG+, 11-13, BAL, w/o 4+M

2H: FG+, 5+C, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2S: FG+, 5+D, w/o 4+M, UNBAL

2NT+ = whatever you like

FG responses-I think the 1H response needs to be reserved for something that occurs more frequently that a S+. I'm also concerned about having to bid 2S with something like Axx x KQxxx Qxx because we're running out of room too fast. Using 1N as 5M/4M seems duplication because this structure lets responder name his 5-cd major cheaply enough.

 

 

Semipositives-I would worry here about being able to enter a GF after any of the 1-level responses.

[straube]

ok. Let me attack this another way. Let's say I was married to these club responses....

 

1D-GF

1H-any 5-7 hcps

1S-any 0-4 hcps

other-GF

 

How would you assign 1D, 1N, 2C, 2D, etc?

[kayin801]

I looked at Berkowitz-Cohen and I don't think that their initial responses are better than what my friends play now. Berkowitz-Cohen wrong-sides everything.

 

A compensating advantage to B-C is that opener's next bid is not acceptance of a transfer. But one could use 1C-2C (diamonds), 2D (hearts) as does Meckwell.

B-C have a section in their book that suggests transfer responses as a potential alternative to natural responses. This is what I started out using.

 

 

 

 

If you liked those particular responses to 1C (I don't) then I think Richard's MOSCITO has similarish responses to start, which could then be tweaked? I could be horribly mistaken though and I'm definitely far too lazy to look up if I'm right or not :lol:

[akhare]

ok. Let me attack this another way.  Let's say I was married to these club responses....

 

1D-GF

1H-any 5-7 hcps

1S-any 0-4 hcps

other-GF

 

How would you assign 1D, 1N, 2C, 2D, etc?

I don't think this scheme very optimal. It gains one step for the positive responses, but comes at the huge cost of playing a completely different structure after 1C - 1H.

 

Also, room after 1C - 1H auction is way too cramped and it seems much better to redefine the structure as:

 

1D: Any SP

1H: Spades, S+m / Bal -> 1N: S+C, 2C: S / S+D, 2D+ = bal

1S: Junk

1N: H / H+m -> 2D = H+C, 2H = H, 2S+ = H+D

2C: D / minors -> 2H = diamonds, 2S+ = minors

2D: Three suited

2H: Single suited clubs

2S+: Majors reversed, etc.

 

Granted, the single suiters start at 2H and two suiters at 2S, but IMO it isn't a very big loss.

 

BTW, note that original design intent of Moscito was to show as many SP shapes ASAP over 1♣ and immediate bids from 1H - 2S were reserved for that purpose.

 

In this scheme, given that all SP responses are compressed in a single bid, it makes much more sense to allow maximal space to unwind them (and still be able to find the best part score at the 2 level if necessary)...

[awm]

I think bidding over a 1♠ negative or a 1♥ semi-positive is pretty tough without a lot of complicated methods/agreements. You need a lot of work determining which sequences are forcing or not, as well as how to deal with competitive sequences. My impression from the "non-relay" restriction is that you're looking for a system without a huge amount of complexity, in which case I'd recommend sticking with 1♦ negative and other responses game forcing.

[straube]

I think bidding over a 1♠ negative or a 1♥ semi-positive is pretty tough without a lot of complicated methods/agreements. You need a lot of work determining which sequences are forcing or not, as well as how to deal with competitive sequences. My impression from the "non-relay" restriction is that you're looking for a system without a huge amount of complexity, in which case I'd recommend sticking with 1♦ negative and other responses game forcing.

These folks use 1C-1D, 1H-1S as a second negative and their 2C continuation shows an even bigger hand.

 

So I'm merely dividing the semipositives from the junk immediately. I'm sure they can get that.

 

1C-1H, 1S establishes a GF. Natural bidding ensues

1C-1S, 2C establishes a GF. Natural bidding again

 

What I'm trying to do is to decide what positives I want to show immediately as opposed to those that can wait with a 1D response. If I can solve this, I'm hoping that they can continue with natural or fairly natural bidding thereafter.

[akhare]

These folks use 1C-1D, 1H-1S as a second negative and their 2C continuation shows an even bigger hand.

 

So I'm merely dividing the semipositives from the junk immediately. I'm sure they can get that.

 

1C-1H, 1S establishes a GF. Natural bidding ensues

1C-1S, 2C establishes a GF. Natural bidding again

 

What I'm trying to do is to decide what positives I want to show immediately as opposed to those that can wait with a 1D response. If I can solve this, I'm hoping that they can continue with natural or fairly natural bidding thereafter.

Seems like for purely natural responses with 5+M:

 

1D: SP

1H: GF 5+ spades / Bal

1S: Junk

1N: GF 5+ Hearts

2C: GF Diamonds

2D: GF Clubs

 

is a pretty good start.

 

Frankly, I am struggling to see why 1C - 1H SP is actually better than 1C - 1D SP in this scheme of things...

[straube]

These folks use 1C-1D, 1H-1S as a second negative and their 2C continuation shows an even bigger hand.

 

So I'm merely dividing the semipositives from the junk immediately.  I'm sure they can get that. 

 

1C-1H, 1S establishes a GF. Natural bidding ensues

1C-1S, 2C establishes a GF. Natural bidding again

 

What I'm trying to do is to decide what positives I want to show immediately as opposed to those that can wait with a 1D response.  If I can solve this, I'm hoping that they can continue with natural or fairly natural bidding thereafter.

Seems like for purely natural responses with 5+M:

 

1D: SP

1H: GF 5+ spades / Bal

1S: Junk

1N: GF 5+ Hearts

2C: GF Diamonds

2D: GF Clubs

 

is a pretty good start.

 

Frankly, I am struggling to see why 1C - 1H SP is actually better than 1C - 1D SP in this scheme of things...

If we look at standard Precision's initial responses...

 

1D-0-7

1H-8+, 5H

1S-8+, 5S

1N-8-13 bal

2C-8+, 5C

2D-8+, 5D

 

we see that 1H, 1S, 1N, 2C, 2D, etc are all devoted to GF hands.

 

This is the equivalent (looking at Fibonacci) of devoting 1D, 1N, 2C, 2D etc to GF hands...which is what I proposed.

 

If one devotes a 1D response to 5-7 as well as a 1S response to 0-4, then one has necessarily robbed the positives of something equivalent to a 1S response. That is a big difference.

 

What I've attempted to do with

 

1D-GF other

1H-semipositive

1S-neg

etc-GF other

 

is to separate the semipositives from the negatives straight away. This has the primary disadvantage of hurting auctions after 1C-1S (neg) because opener isn't allowed to show extras before learning of a second negative (as in 1C-1D (neg), 1H(extra)-1S (neg)). It has the primary advantage in letting opener assess game prospects if RHO interferes.