whereagles Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Well, you guys are going off-topic. On our case, the hand is AQTxxxx--KJxxKx and I don't have a problem opening a strong club on it. The opps would have to bid to the FIVE level to inhibith my 4S rebid. Even if that happens, I wouldn't be much better off than if I had opened 1S. As for the off-topic discussion, those who say "preempts will be the death of the strong club" have been saying that for 30 years already, and what I see instead is more and more players and experts using Precision. Also, that players use Precision only for the limited 1D/H/S openers cannot be a correct statement. Why would they spend time going through all the asking bid structures if they didn't think they could use it? But then again, this is a futile discussion. Time will tell who's right or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 As for the off-topic discussion, those who say "preempts will be the death of the strong club" have been saying that for 30 years already, and what I see instead is more and more players and experts using Precision. Also, that players use Precision only for the limited 1D/H/S openers cannot be a correct statement. Why would they spend time going through all the asking bid structures if they didn't think they could use it? But then again, this is a futile discussion. Time will tell who's right or wrong. Now THIS I agree with B) I don't think strong ♣ systems will disapear because of preempts, I don't think Polish ♣ systems will disapear,... UNLESS the regulations would certainly ban them like strong pass systems. They all have their advantages and disadvantages, and we accept the disadvantages as a trade for the advantages. And everyone has his own preferences :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 Well, you guys are going off-topic. On our case, the hand is AQTxxxx--KJxxKx and I don't have a problem opening a strong club on it. The opps would have to bid to the FIVE level to inhibith my 4S rebid. Having opened a strong Club I do not feel inclined to rebid 4S opposite no encouragement from partner (unless forced to do so by 4H overcall, of course). Even if that happens, I wouldn't be much better off than if I had opened 1S.I don't have a strong opinion about the merits of opening a strong Club on this particular hand. But generally I found, when playing precision, a marked increase in accuracy by opening 1S on hands whose playing strength derives more from distribution than high cards and, trusting that the auction will not die, making a strong rebid. You lose the theoretical advantage of responder trap passing you in 1S with values and a misfit. As for the off-topic discussion, those who say "preempts will be the death of the strong club" have been saying that for 30 years already, and what I see instead is more and more players and experts using Precision. Odd, that. My experience is otherwise. I find that most players start with a natural system, then experiment with precision, then move back to natural again. So precision will never die, as there will always be a substantial population going through their precision phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 23, 2004 Report Share Posted August 23, 2004 "Well, you guys are going off-topic. On our case, the hand is AQTxxxx--KJxxKx and I don't have a problem opening a strong club on it. The opps would have to bid to the FIVE level to inhibith my 4S rebid. " Would not open this 1C for a number of reasons, some of which Free has already mentioned. Also opening this with 1C is to compromise the 1C opening. If the bidding proceeds 1C (4H) X are you happy? No!. You intimate you would bid 4S without a qualm. Well, now you might find partner with QTxx and an outside card or 2. Will you make 4S? Who knows. I also might consider 4S but I certainly would not feel confident. Worse still if the bidding is 1C (5C) X. How much easier is it if the auction is 1S (4H) X. Now you feel much more comfortable in passing. We had a rule that 1C openings were always full value. This had 2 side effects. When pd x a high level contract, I could pass in comparative comfort. Also when we opened with 1 suit we were able to jump around to show length etc. This hand qualifies nicely. As to the discussion re the continuation of strong C opening systems; they will continue of course, but probably only in the hands of good partners who are prepared to put in a lot of work, especially in coping with intervention. I would expect to see more and more 2 way club systems in the next few years. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 We had a rule that 1C openings were always full value. This had 2 side effects. When pd x a high level contract, I could pass in comparative comfort. Also when we opened with 1 suit we were able to jump around to show length etc. This hand qualifies nicely. Well, I prefer to see strong club openings as a bidding tool that I can use whenever I have a hand that is fit for it, regardless of points B) The hand is, of course, good for opening 1S and rebidding 4S. But if pard has KxxxxxAQxQxxx 1S 1NT4S he is not much better off than if you had opened 4S :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhar Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Well, you guys are going off-topic. On our case, the hand is AQTxxxx--KJxxKx and I don't have a problem opening a strong club on it. The opps would have to bid to the FIVE level to inhibith my 4S rebid. Even if that happens, I wouldn't be much better off than if I had opened 1S. Which auction would you prefer? Standard: 1S (2H) 3D (4H) ? or strong club: 1C (2H) Dbl (4H) ? presumably 3D in the strong club auction shows some specific strengh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 In 1C (2H) X, if double is game-force, then I would prefer to have opened 1S. But if double is just for competition, I actually prefer to have opened 1C. Now I know I don't belong in slam and can bid 4S with confidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 "Well, I prefer to see strong club openings as a bidding tool that I can use whenever I have a hand that is fit for it, regardless of points."I totally agree with this statement; thats why I open 1S. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The hand is, of course, good for opening 1S and rebidding 4S. But if pard has KxxxxxAQxQxxx You seriously can't be suggesting your auction of 1S 1N4S Firstly responder has an 11 count - too good for 1NT unless you play a forcing NTSecondly, why on earth would opener not autosplinter on the hand? Now responder can see that the hands are a superb fit and make some move to slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 Hog, you're coming exactly to my point! If you have the gadgets to show the long spades and void heart after opening 1S, by all means open 1S. It is only if you don't have the gadgetry that I prefer opening 1C. Though I still think there's a lot to be said about a straight-forward 4S opener. Like for instance, what might be 1S (2C) X (5C) 1S (2H) X (4H)4S (5H) is now 4S p p p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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