How can this game be bid?

[ONEferBRID]

We've seen where 3C! has been used as an artificial GF, SJS such as in:

1M - 1NT!

3C!

 

or

1D - 1S

3C!

 

Using gnasher's idea ( of 2S! ) for the 1H response, partner has 2 additional rebids that he otherwise wouldn't have if 3C! were used ( namely 2NT and 3C ) :

 

1D - 1H

2S!

 

and you can also use it for a 1C open:

1C - 1H

2S!

[Crunch3nt]

If you play a standard multi-two diamonds, this hand qualifies easily for 8 PT.

 

If not, and you are playing standard, just rebid 2NT anyway. You get to to 3NT or 4H. WTP?

 

The auction (not playing Gazilli or 2NT=3-6) 1m - 1M; 3m should deny 3M.

[aguahombre]

"If ....you are playing standard, just rebid 2NT anyway. You get to to 3NT or 4H. WTP?" (crunch3nt)

 

That is the most enticing "fake it" I have read, unless there are people whose initial responses are such that they can pass 2NT (I didn't say their responses suck :) ).

 

Obviously some artificial rebid after 1♦ 1♥ is better for this case; but I was waiting for a way of dealing with the hand absent gadgets. I really hated 2S if not a toy, and 3♦ seemed to head toward both wrong strain and wrong level.

[kayin801]

How bad is a 3♥ rebid? Just throwing that out there, though I don't feel comfortable making it.

 

(I would bid 1♦-1♥-3♦-P)

[aguahombre]

Well, other than also not being GF and telling pard the wrong number of hearts held? Am trying to read about the least horrible game forcing bid which allows us to uncover a 5-3 heart fit, if there is one.

[Fluffy]

well you all knew this I guess, but I still have to post it

 

1♦-1♥

2NT-3♣

3♥-4♥

 

2NT will find best game between 3NT and 4♥ it is true that sometimes 5♦ will be best, but you won't have the space to have the accuracy to find out, so just forcing to game works better.

[Free]

I overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

[bluecalm]

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

 

So you play it as forcing ?

 

We've seen where 3C! has been used as an artificial GF, SJS such as in:

1M - 1NT!

3C!

 

or

1D - 1S

3C!

 

Using gnasher's idea ( of 2S! )

 

All is easy if this hand was GF opposite 1♥ response but it isn't imo. Do you guys all want to GF with it ?

[hanp]

I think it's a very good idea to use 2S as potentially artificial in the auctions 1m - 1H, and also to use 1C - 1S - 1D as potentially artificial. Serious partnerships that claim not play those as artificial but bid it without real suits anyway will do better by having firm agreements on what hands those auctions can contain and how these are shown afterwards. By using a little artificiality a lot of clarity can be gained and space can be saved.

[Free]

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

 

So you play it as forcing ?

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

 

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

[Fluffy]

and also to use 1C - 1S - 1D as potentially artificial.

Very good, you bid 1♦ then correct to 2♦ and partner alerts, so sad this doesn't work with spades because then it is a legal call :P.

[Fluffy]

overloaded my 2NT rebid (including hand of death), so this is like taking candy from a baby.

 

So you play it as forcing ?

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

 

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

I have it overloaded also with 19+ with 6+ cards in my suit

[bluecalm]

Yes it's forcing for 1 round, but not GF (usually we bid game however). It can be 18-19 BAL, GF with 4M, or 16+ with 6m-3M.

 

I'd prefer to overload reverses, but my partner doesn't like it.

 

Imo it is decent solution, especially if you combine it with putting all 18-19 balanced hands in 1♣ so after 1♦ 2NT is always some kind of unbal strong hand (6-3M, 6d-4c, 5d-4c); this way you can have natural reverses and natural jumpshifts (showing 5cards). Better yet would be putting all 18-19 balanced hands in mexican 2♦. Then I would even like to play such system... :P

[aguahombre]

Better yet would be putting all 18-19 balanced hands in mexican 2♦. Then I would even like to play such system... :P

Speaking of yummy. I have seen M2♦ in action, but have never noticed a sequence where it gained over some other methods. I imagine it is valuable as an "eliminator" --so the 18-19 bal. hand is not a possibility for a 2NT rebid, which can then be used for something else. The drawback (hence, yummy) is when the partnership would have been better off passing a 1m bid than playing in 2NT.

[ONEferBRID]

♠ Ax

♥ Kxx

♦ AQxxxxx

♣ A

 

♠ xxxx

♥ AQ10xx

♦ x

♣ xxx

 

Just playing some more with gnasher's 2S! "toy" ( GF, may be artificial ).

The beauty of it is that the clarification stays BELOW 3NT :

 

1D - 1H

2S! - 2NT! ( asks for clarification )

??

   3C! = 4s, no 3h, 5+d

   3D! = long Diam, no 4s, no 3h

   3H! = 3h, no 4s, 5+d

   3S! = 4s AND 3h, 5+d

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Similar scheme for 1C open:

1C - 1H

2S! - 2NT!

??

  3C! = long Cl

  3D! = 4s, no 3h, 5+c

  3H! = 3h

  3S! = 4s and 3h

[hanp]

I find this hard to believe Aqua. I think I've seen the auction 2D - 2H - 2S twice on vugraph. Both times 2S made while the other table was down in 3S.

 

Of course the system loses sometimes, either by already being too high or by not being able to use 2D for something different. But the Italian pairs that play it are among the very best in the world and they take their system very seriously. If they didn't think that the advantages outweighed the disadvantages they wouldn't bother.

[bluecalm]

I imagine it is valuable as an "eliminator" --so the 18-19 bal. hand is not a possibility for a 2NT rebid

 

This is minor thing.

The major thing are gains in competition.

As opener can't have 18-19 balanced anymore then double is always pure takout and practically guarantees shortness in their suit.

For example:

 

1♦ - 2♠ pass - 3♠

dbl

 

It's much easier to make decisions here when you know opener is 1-3-6-3/1-4-5-3/1-3-5-4/1-4-4-4 almost always. In standard system you have to worry about 18-19 balanced all the time.

 

One other example:

 

1♣ - pass 1♥ 2♠

dbl 3♠ - ???

 

Now with 5 hearts you have easy 4H almost always as well as with 5clubs 4C or even with 5d you can bid 4D often. In tandard you often pass those doubles fearing 18-19 balanced.

 

This is recurring theme in competiton. If you absolutely don't want to adopt mexican 2D you should at least move all 18-19 balanced to 1C opening imo.