Double Poll

[awm]

Suppose that I open one of a suit playing standard or 2/1. Partner responds 1NT. Now my RHO jumps into the auction by bidding a new suit at the two-level (assume natural). What should my double mean? Does it depend on which suit I opened, which suit my RHO bid, whether 1NT was forcing?

 

I'm most interested in the treatment people think is best rather than what's standard, but if they're at odds feel free to comment.

[TylerE]

Penalty as best imo. Opener already has a decent idea of responders shape so no need for takeout.

[MickyB]

Takeout is best imo. Opener has no idea of responder's shape so you need it to be takeout.

[mcphee]

Playing dble as take offers the greatest chances for the best result. It is not even close imho.

[jdonn]

Takeout from both sides, wtp?

[TylerE]

Misread the poll. Thought it refered to 1m auctions specifically.

 

So, on reflection:

 

When 1NT is NF: X = Penalty

When 1NT is F: X = Takeout

[kgr]

Takeout for me.

I wondered if this makes sense after:

1♣-(P)-1NT-(2♦)

But probably it does with eg 4315?

[gwnn]

In my club in Romania everyone is firmly convinced that when no trump has been bid at the table by at least one of the four players all doubles are penalty.

 

Everyone except me - these doubles (after 1 Major) should definitely be for takeout.

 

makes sense to play as penalty:

 

1♣-p-1NT-(something)

x

 

when playing old standard american.

 

clear penalty

 

1♦-p-1NT-(2♣)

p-p-X

 

I missed a grand slam once like this <_<

[MickyB]

If their suit is higher than ours, a pure takeout double will never get passed, so perhaps X should be values here. Certainly 1D-P-1NT-2H, X as strong balanced feels right. 1H-P-1NT-2S is a bit different because you need a takeout bid for 15(43) and you want a scrambling bid opposite this.

[fromageGB]

I think "it depends on the bids".

While I can't really give a useful answer on the rebid after opening a minor, as I play non-standard minor openings, with 1M p 1NT 2any I think double is best showing values, say a 15 count, and no unusual distribution. Let responder make a decision which will often be pass, and always 2M if that's what he was intending in the first place.

 

I don't really buy into a takeout double when you will have no expectation of a fit. If responder was intending to continue with a long suit weak takeout then when you pass he will do that anyway.

 

When RHO bids 2 other-M, you can use 2NT as a minor takeout when 5044, or even2533 if partner's 1NT denies spades.

[campboy]

I find it very difficult to believe that takeout is right when opener's suit is clubs. FWIW, Bridge World Standard says it is takeout after a major-suit opening, but doesn't seem to define it after a minor-suit opening.

[hanp]

Opener's double is takeout. Responder's double is takeout, unless they overcalled below opener's non-1S opening.

[benlessard]

2m takeout, 2M penalty.

[aguahombre]

I think double is best showing values, say a 15 count, and no unusual distribution.

You must be a weak NT opener.

[jdonn]

Opener's double is takeout. Responder's double is takeout, unless they overcalled below opener's non-1S opening.

I know your point on that last part, but even then I think it should be more optional than strict penalty.

[JLOGIC]

I feel extremely strongly that:

 

1M p 1N 2x X = takeout

 

Bidding seems impossible without playing the immediate double as takeout.

 

1M p 1N 2x

p p X

 

Has more merit to being penalty, since responder is known to be short in another suit already (openers major). I think playing this as takeout with typically 2 trumps is still better because:

 

A) You cater to opener having length since they had to pass, and you can nail them this way

B ) You are unlikely to have a penalty X since you are under the bidder, and because partner would usually have doubled for you already with shortness, so it's just unlikely you have a penalty X here.

C) You still need a way to compete when you have a not-so-unlikely 5422 or whatever and some values.

[awm]

It seems to me that:

 

1♦ - P - 1NT - 2♠

 

Double should be penalty. If double is takeout, our only possible fits are in the minors and partner is never leaving it in anyway.... so it seems like you lose very little by just bidding 3♣ to compete. Of course, opener could easily have extras with four good spades in this sequence and want to penalize.

 

On the other hand, I agree with others who have commented that for example:

 

1♠ - P - 1NT - 2♥

 

Double should be takeout (from both sides). Partner can leave it in with a bunch of hearts (still possible here) or compete in either minor or to 2♠. If opener has the competitive hand and double is penalty, then competing is really awkward here because 3m loses you the chance to play in the other minor or in 2♠.

 

Maybe "depends on the bids" is best? I'd suggest penalty if the suit is above opener's suit (and thus a suit that responder bypassed to bid 1NT) and takeout if the suit is below opener's suit.

[JLOGIC]

Maybe "depends on the bids" is best? I'd suggest penalty if the suit is above opener's suit (and thus a suit that responder bypassed to bid 1NT) and takeout if the suit is below opener's suit.

This rule includes 1H p 1N 2S X as penalty, was that intentional? If so I strongly disagree.

[awm]

Well the interesting thing is, you potentially have 2NT available as a takeout bid when double is penalty. Presumably many of the "natural 2NT" hands are going to be making penalty doubles anyway. So the only real losses to playing double=penalty and 2NT=takeout would be when partner wants to leave a takeout double in and when you could potentially play in two of a suit after the takeout double. In the auction 1♥-P-1N-2♠ (or indeed any auction where overcaller's suit is spades), neither of those would seem to apply...

[Free]

Takeout from both sides, obviously

[MickyB]

Well the interesting thing is, you potentially have 2NT available as a takeout bid when double is penalty. Presumably many of the "natural 2NT" hands are going to be making penalty doubles anyway. So the only real losses to playing double=penalty and 2NT=takeout would be when partner wants to leave a takeout double in and when you could potentially play in two of a suit after the takeout double. In the auction 1♥-P-1N-2♠ (or indeed any auction where overcaller's suit is spades), neither of those would seem to apply...

As I said before, there is a case for this, but you lose your scramble with 15(43) opposite 3244. Also, this removes the option of playing 2NT as good/bad.

[karlson]

Edit: wow I should read the posts above me, I just echoed MickyB completely.

Well the interesting thing is, you potentially have 2NT available as a takeout bid when double is penalty. Presumably many of the "natural 2NT" hands are going to be making penalty doubles anyway. So the only real losses to playing double=penalty and 2NT=takeout would be when partner wants to leave a takeout double in and when you could potentially play in two of a suit after the takeout double. In the auction 1♥-P-1N-2♠ (or indeed any auction where overcaller's suit is spades), neither of those would seem to apply...

Or you could play good/bad, which seems like a pretty good treatment to me in this auction. Also, if you double, partner has 2n scrambling available which seems incredibly useful to me here.

 

I do agree with your point that the double basically never gets left in, but there are still a lot of advantages that you didn't mention.

[bluecalm]

Dunno about standard. It surprised me too many times. All the people I play live with would take those dbl's as t/o.

[Hanoi5]

If responder's 1NT was natural and non-forcing, then I'd prefer the double to be penalty.

[gwnn]

Why? In standard bidding

1♠-p-1NT

 

can have anything at all, 4-9 hcp with 0-2 spades, 0-13 hearts, 0-13 diamonds, 0-13 clubs (almost). So how can opener make an unilateral penalty double if his partner can have anything from a 2344 9 count to a 0643 4 count?