RKC question - new suit after queen denial

[BudH]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=skjxxha7xxxdxcqxx&s=saxxhk9xxdakj8caj]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

1♥ - 2NT (Jacoby)

3♦ - 4NT (RKC 1430)

5♣ - 5♦ (trump queen ask)

5♥ - 5♠

5NT - 6♥

P

 

Is 5♠ a general king ask? Or is 5♠ asking specifically about the ♠K? Note that in this case the trump queen was denied by opener.

 

[Yes, I know that's a disgusting opening bid by North.....]

[blackshoe]

Depends on agreements I think. For myself, using Spiral Scan, it asks for the ♣K. Some might expect it to ask for opener to bid 5NT, responder intending to pass that.

[jillybean]

Once you've opened that **** must you co-operate with the J2nt sequence?

[Zelandakh]

If partner asks for the queen and gets a negative response but still makes another try then they are implicitly asking for extra trump length. How you handle specific suit asks here (and generally) is a matter for agreement.

[OleBerg]

Once you've opened that **** must you co-operate with the J2nt sequence?

Wrong forum.

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showforum=5

[655321]

Once you've opened that **** must you co-operate with the J2nt sequence?

The new forum software has filtered out your bad language so I don't know what word you used to describe the North hand. But I probably wouldn't agree with you even if I knew what the word was - I do agree that the North hand is not quite worth opening, nevertheless a nice 5431 with both majors is a decent hand to hold.

 

In answer to your question, yes, having opened you most definitely should cooperate with partner. In any case the hand has got better with the known 4 card support. Denying a singleton would be a (much) worse error than opening in the first place.

 

But even if the auction did not improve the hand I still think it is usually wrong to backpedal by telling more lies, for example by showing fewer Aces than you hold in response to Blackwood.

[MFA]

For us a false Q-ask and then a follow up sets focus on "something" that can't otherwise be clarified.

 

First priority are kings that can't otherwise be shown. Here, if asker bids 5NT then the whereabouts of ♠K is lost. A false Q-ask would therefore set focus on ♠K so teller should have ♠K to make a positive move over the delayed 5NT (or compensating tricks outside spades of course).

 

However, this specific situation we solve by having 5♠ and not 5NT as the general grand slam try in this sequence. That gives room to clarify ♠K by a 5NT-response to 5♠.

 

Therefore a delayed 5♠ would instead, as second priority, launch queen-showing instead of king-showing. (If opener happens to have an un-shown king, he can bid it also, expecting partner to be missing only 1 of the top 3 honours in the suit anyway.)

 

Sample sequences:

4NT(♥) - 5♣, 5♠ = general grand try, asks for kings

 

4NT(♥) - 5♣, 5♦ - 5♥, 5♠ = general grand try asks for queens and kings mixed

 

4NT(♦) - 5♦ - 5♠ = general grand try, teller can show ♠(5NT) or ♣ king

 

4NT(♦) - 5♦, 5♥ - 5♠(first worst: no Q), 5NT = general grand try, "but I need the ♥K" - the card that can't be shown in the above sequence.

[paulg]

I believe that Rosenberg uses this method to ask for third round control in a suit.

[ONEferBRID]

Dealer: North Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ KJxx ♥ A7xxx ♦ x ♣ Qxx ♠ Axx ♥ K9xx ♦ AKJ8 ♣ AJ

1♥ - 2NT (Jacoby)

3♦ - 4NT (RKC 1430)

5♣ -  5♦ (trump queen ask)

5♥ -  5♠

5NT - 6♥

P

 

Is 5♠ a general king ask?  Or is 5♠ asking specifically about the ♠K?  Note that in this case the trump queen was denied by opener.

 

[Yes, I know that's a disgusting opening bid by North.....]

 

1) If Opener had extra length ( 6 cards ) , he would have replied positively to the trump Q-ask as if he had her lady.

 

2) After the trump Q denial, the only rational reason to make another "ask" is that Responder already has extra trump length ( 5 cards ) but was hoping for a cheap positive reply showing the ♠K as well. That way a cheaper 2nd specific K-ask is available.

 

3) I play specific K-asking for the cheapest ( bid ) K, not just for the K of the asking suit.

 

4) The way to make a 3rd-Rnd-( side suit) Ctrl ask is by bidding at least 1 step PAST a K-ask..... and usually that would be in a specific suit in question ( for example 6♣ asks for 3rd Rnd Ctrl in ♣ ).

 

5) I'm not sure if I buy into stopping at 5NT after a negative reply to a trump Q-ask.

It sure seems weird ( at least highly unsual ) to play in 6 w/Q and stop in ( what I would coinsider a risky ) 5NT w/o the Q.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

With the hand shown, I have no idea why Responder ( South ) pressed on with a bid of 5♠.

If it were a K-ask, then 5NT shows that K ( NT shows the feature in the asking suit ).... and He still signed off in the small ♥ slam.

 

What was the point ?

[peachy]

Once you've opened that **** must you co-operate with the J2nt sequence?

The J2NT method says that opener shows a singleton on the 3-level if he has one. So yes, it is better to cooperate unless you have agreed to change the method so that opener can deny a singleton even when he has one.

[mike777]

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> None </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KJxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> A7xxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> x </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> Qxx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> Axx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> K9xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AKJ8 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AJ </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

1♥ - 2NT (Jacoby)

3♦ - 4NT (RKC 1430)

5♣ -  5♦ (trump queen ask)

5♥ -  5♠

5NT - 6♥

P

 

Is 5♠ a general king ask?  Or is 5♠ asking specifically about the ♠K?  Note that in this case the trump queen was denied by opener.

 

[Yes, I know that's a disgusting opening bid by North.....]

 

assuming per op you are not playing kickback...but 4nt as ace ask and 5nt as specific k ask.

 

 

for me 5d=queen ask

5h deny

5s shows ks grand try..promise all key cards...asks you show your kings lowest first.

 

so: in this example

 

 

5nt=qs per logic

6c shows kc

6d shows kd

 

OTOH many play asking for k of bid suit...your agreements may differ.

[jillybean]

Once you've opened that **** must you co-operate with the J2nt sequence?

The J2NT method says that opener shows a singleton on the 3-level if he has one. So yes, it is better to cooperate unless you have agreed to change the method so that opener can deny a singleton even when he has one.

Yeah, yeah - I know you have bid your hand, I should have said once you've opened that 'bleep' you've got to stick with it.

The opening bid is horrid, even by my standards which are rather bad at times.

 

btw, my bad word was in fact just * * * *, I couldn't find a non offensive word to use and I didn't realise forums were masking offensive words with ****

[Free]

It's a pretty useless call in this situation. You ask for the trump Q, if partner doesn't have it then you normally signoff in 5 or 6.

 

The only reason to continue bidding something else is if you have 1 extra trump, looking for another extra trump in partner's hand. With 10 trumps the Q is considered irrelevant. Since opener and responder can have longer trumps, you might want to be able to look for a 10th trump and continue bidding.

 

Basically it depends a lot on the situation:

- If Jacoby showed 3+♥ support, then it may make sence to continue the auction because you have 4 trumps and opener may have 6 (knowing only about 9 combined trumps). After the trump Q, Kings are usually asked, so I'd look at 5♠ as a King ask if you also have an extra trump. Response is pretty simple: 6♥ = no extra ♥, other calls show an extra ♥ and are a response to the King ask.

- If Jacoby showed 4+♥ support, then 5♠ is useless since opener would show the ♥Q with a 6th trump. And responder with 5 trumps wouldn't ask for the Q. Only thing left to look for is the choice between 6♥ and 6NT. No idea what 5♠ should mean here though.

[Zelandakh]

1) If Opener had extra length ( 6 cards ) , he would have replied positively to the trump Q-ask as if he had her lady.

 

2) After the trump Q denial, the only rational reason to make another "ask" is that Responder already has extra trump length ( 5 cards ) but was hoping for a cheap positive reply showing the ♠K as well. That way a cheaper 2nd specific K-ask is available.

 

3) I play specific K-asking for the cheapest ( bid ) K, not just for the K of the asking suit.

 

4) The way to make a 3rd-Rnd-( side suit) Ctrl ask is by bidding at least 1 step PAST a K-ask..... and usually that would be in a specific suit in question ( for example 6♣ asks for 3rd Rnd Ctrl in ♣ ).

 

5) I'm not sure if I buy into stopping at 5NT after a negative reply to a trump Q-ask.

It sure seems weird ( at least highly unsual ) to play in 6 w/Q and stop in ( what I would coinsider a risky ) 5NT w/o the Q.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

With the hand shown, I have no idea why Responder ( South ) pressed on with a bid of 5♠.

If it were a K-ask, then 5NT shows that K ( NT shows the feature in the asking suit ).... and He still signed off in the small ♥ slam.

 

What was the point ?

1.. You are assuming that J2NT promises 4 card support. Not everyone plays it this way.

2.. Depends on your methods whether this would be worthwhile. At this moment I cannot think of a single hand where you would want to do this if playing the inversion method from point 3. In this case the auction you describe proceeds 5S - 5NT and you cue your minor suit king or bid 6H without one. Grand decisions are co-operative.

3.. Inverting the meanings of 5S and 5N does make sense in an auction with hearts agreed.

4.. This seems to come directly from the 'official' version of RKCB. Not every partnership plays this way though.

5.. Stopping in 5NT usually comes in these auctions with a minor agreed.

 

 

I agree that the bidding is strange with the hand shown unless, perhaps, N-S did not have a 4+ cards agreement for J2NT and South did mean 5S as a length ask. In that case 5NT might show 6 hearts, no minor suit side king, and an undisclosed extra and 6H now seems reasonable. Anyone who made this bid with a pick-up partner is simply stupid.

[manudude03]

I prefer it to ask for the ♠K for 6N, without it, opener bids 6♥.

[hanp]

I think I know what word jillybean intended to use and I am offended.

 

Agree that if you open the hand then you should certainly show the singleton. As for 5S, can we just agree that in this case it was a bad bid, whatever it meant?

[aguahombre]

Regarding the queen-ask: The answer has already been given; with extra trump, opener would have "shown" the queen. So forget about 5S asking for extra trump length. Whatever else you want 5S to mean, it is not asking for extra trumps.

 

Scratch that if J2N does not deliver 4 pieces. Then, next time require J2N to have four pieces. There are plenty of other 2/1 methods to establish GF with 3 trumps.

[Lovera]

I also think that situation in heart, when Q is denied, is clear (as already aguahombre said): in the suit there is not 10 card fit that could be helpfully searching if to play 6♥ or 6NT. The hand of N is really in minimum and as we can see there is probably to lose a trick in trump lacking QJ10. Than the answer to 5♠ being 5NT(=King) and not passing at next level should sure an high honor (K or Q) in query suit(=spade) and not ultherior extra in the hand avoiding to get at 6♥ only how a remaing (and forced) choising (in this way recupering sign off).(Lovera)

[nige1]

[hv=pc=&n=skjxxha7xxxdxcqxx&s=saxxhk9xxdakj8caj&v=n&d=n&a=1Hp2N(Jacoby)P3dp4N(RKC 1430)p5cp5d(Trump queen ask)p5hp5sp5Np6hppp]300|300|

Scoring: IMP

Is 5♠ a general king ask? Or is 5♠ asking specifically about the ♠K? Note that in this case the trump queen was denied by opener.

[Yes, I know that's a disgusting opening bid by North.....] [/hv]

On the given deal, the auction is hard to understand. If you ask for the queen of trumps but make a grand slam try after partner's denial, John Matheson calls this maneuver a two-step. In this context, It wastes no space, so it's sensible to give it a meaning:

 

• Zelandakh suggest that you might use it to ask for extra trump length.
• Paulg thinks that Rosenberg might use it to ask for 3rd round control rather than kings.
• Matheson still uses it to promise the trump queen and ask for kings, but showing an extra-keen grand-slam try.
• You might use it to ask for number of kings rather than specific kings.

[Lovera]

The problem is that if we had Q we'd known King's location: with 5♠ meaning yes Q in trump plus K in spade or conversely with 6♣ yes Q in trump plus K in club and not K in spade and we stay at six level but we have the Q also for referring about K. When Q is not we can probably avoid to get six if,as in this case, the partner hand is poor not having any extra. Than my choising to indicate with 5[NT] a top honor (between K or Q -let's suppose Q in spade and K in club), bye.

[SteveMoe]

5♠=mini-torture bid. South knows the destination is 6♥, and that partner does not have 6♥ cards (no ♥Q equivalent). Holding all the keys missing the trump Q on a nine card fit, 6♥ and not 6NT is the contract. the only thing that makes sense is that 5♠ asks partner to peek and see if trumps split 2-2. --) :rolleyes:

[rhm]

If partner asks for the queen and gets a negative response but still makes another try then they are implicitly asking for extra trump length. How you handle specific suit asks here (and generally) is a matter for agreement.

Assuming J2NT shows four card support, wouldn't you show the trump queen if you had extra trump length?

I certainly would with 10 combined trumps.

In other words denying the queen shows that opener has no more than 5 trumps.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Lovera]

5♠=mini-torture bid. South knows the destination is 6♥, and that partner does not have 6♥ cards (no ♥Q equivalent). Holding all the keys missing the trump Q on a nine card fit, 6♥ and not 6NT is the contract. the only thing that makes sense is that 5♠ asks partner to peek and see if trumps split 2-2. --) :rolleyes:

Instead, because if trump break is easy, needs to think to sure contract in the other eventuality. When partner bids 5NT usually suggest King only in this case. But 5NT has other meaning about any value (i.e. in a suit below query) that cannot bid at next level or upper trump agree. Here with J10 more in trump (Instead of xx) and K in club is better to bid 6♣ meaning Q in spade plus K in suit indicated to difference with 5NT=(yes King).

[Lovera]

In this situation where a Q ask meaning that bidder not has it and when partner denies Q tellling (fourthemore) 10 card fit is not it and being grand excluded eventually 5♠ assume query for controll in suit with answere 5NT for yes K or also Q (and K in other suit that cannot show at other level) whilest,if extra are to pass at six level, 6x answere meaning Q in spade and K in other suit indicated because remain to estabilish if to play 5NT or 6 of agree trump.

[Lovera]

Because it'd usefully to study the other case - one keycard(=Ace out of trump) - being possible to difference vary situations if anyone can indicate a real hand, thanks. Infact what serves is an hand with four keys as 4NT bidder and no Q on the line in trump agree almost initially because this gadget seems to work with a key less too.