Known Fit Takes Precedence?

[gurgistan]

[hv=d=e&v=b&w=sjt865hqt2dk7cqj2&e=sak2hkj753d62cak4]266|100|Scoring: IMP

 

We are playing 2/1.

 

An uncontested auction opens with partner's 1♥. I respond 1N intending to rebid 3♥ over a minimal response and 4♥ over a favorable response by opener. Opener rebids 3N!

 

Opener is so upset with bidding he leaves the table!

 

He questions why I did not bid 1♠. I tell him we had a known fit in ♥s and so there was no need to explore ♠s.

 

So, 1♠ or 1N?

 

What do people make of opener's 3N rebid? What should it have shown?

 

Any and all help appreciated.[/hv]

[dcohio]

Either 1♠ or 1 NT are fine since both are forcing for one round. I would pull 3NT to 4♥ for sure.

 

3NT by opener shows 18-19HCP says nothing about stoppers

[bid_em_up]

1N is not fine.

 

What if opener had 4 spades, instead of just three?

 

Plus, in spades, the diamond K will be protected on the opening lead.

 

Personally, if my hand contains 4 spades but is only worth a simple raise in hearts, I make the simple raise. If my hand is stronger than a simple raise of partner's major, I will (almost) always show the other major.

 

Edit: The hand in question is borderline as to whether or not to treat it as a limit raise. The values are approximately right, but they are soft. However, the spade suit gives the hand some added value, and that, makes it worth bidding twice on the hand (imo), but by bidding 1S initially (not 1N).

[fred]

FWIW I would not make a limit raise - I would just raise to 2H. Note that you should definitely not bid 1S if you think your hand is worth only a single raise (because, if you do bid 1S, you endplay yourself into misdescribing your hand if your partner's rebid is 2C or 2D).

 

Also it should be mentioned that, according to my understanding of "standard 2/1", 2NT is opener's correct rebid over 1NT. 3NT suggests a different sort of hand - 6322 with very strong hearts and roughly the same number of HCPs.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[Stephen Tu]

2nt over 1nt should show 18-19, 3nt shows a different hand (running hearts, somewhat gambling). I suppose 3nt could also show 20+ bal if you don't like to open 2nt with a 5 cd major with certain high card distributions. 3nt doesn't show 18-19 as dcohio claims.

 

You don't want to suppress 5 cd spades if you think the hand is strong enough for an invite (two free bids). Slightly weaker, you'd definitely raise 2 hearts since you aren't really strong enough to bid spades then 3h later. But if you do think this is an invitational hand (I think it's kind of weak, I would just raise 2h), you really should bid the spades. You might have a NINE card spade fit, that's better able to stand bad breaks (and increases chances of running into a spade ruff if playing in hearts). Sometimes you get 2 minor suit pitches on the hearts, also.

[peachy]

Bid 2H. Neither 1S nor 1NT give partner the news he needs. I see no need to complicate the auction.

[nigel_k]

I would just raise to 2♥.

 

The hand is worth 2♥, not 3♥. If you're counting HCP plus one for the doubleton, then you want at least 11 total with three trumps or 10 total with four trump. There is nothing special about this hand that would count as an exception.

 

Once you've decided the hand is worth 2♥, you don't want to respond 1♠ or 1NT because if partner bids 2 of a minor, a simple preference to 2♥ could be made on a much weaker hand.

 

If you did have a three card limit raise, I don't understand why 1NT followed by 3♥ would be a better choice than 1♠ followed by 3♥. They both show a limit raise and 1NT runs the risk of losing spades or playing in 1NT if it is semi-forcing only. Partner could pass 1NT with 4522 shape for example.

 

With your partner's hand I would have bid 2NT only, not 3NT. Either way your hand should bid 4♥ next.

[hanp]

normal 2H.

[pooltuna]

FWIW I would not make a limit raise - I would just raise to 2H. Note that you should definitely not bid 1S if you think your hand is worth only a single raise (because, if you do bid 1S, you endplay yourself into misdescribing your hand if your partner's rebid is 2C or 2D).

 

Also it should be mentioned that, according to my understanding of "standard 2/1", 2NT is opener's correct rebid over 1NT. 3NT suggests a different sort of hand - 6322 with very strong hearts and roughly the same number of HCPs.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

WHAT!!!!!!!! I didn't think sane responses were allowed in BBF :) FWIW you probably won't/can't get better advise than Fred's on this subject. I'm certainly not going to try altho hopefully it would have been the same.

[jdonn]

With 4 spades and a 3 card limit raise I start 1♠ if I think it will help partner's evaluation (for example KJxx), but not if I think it won't (Axxx or xxxx). With 5 spades and a 3 card limit raise I think I would tend to usually start 1♠ because we may have more spades than hearts, and despite recent developments in bridge theory I still tend to prefer playing in my partnership's longest combined fit.

[MickyB]

As others have said - this is a 2♥ bid immediately, describing this as a three-card limit is an overbid.

 

If you were 4=3=3=3 with a limit raise then I would have a lot of sympathy for 1NT - you would be left slightly fixed by 1♥:1♠, 2♠, as this could well be a 4-3 fit and I would expect 3♥ now to be forcing without discussion.

 

Similarly, if you play constructive raises (so that 1♥:2♥ shows 8-10 points), on a 4=3=3=3 too weak to bid 2♥ immediately I would start with 1NT, to ensure we played our 5-3 heart fit rather than our 4-3 spade fit.

[bluecalm]

FWIW I would not make a limit raise - I would just raise to 2H. Note that you should definitely not bid 1S if you think your hand is worth only a single raise (because, if you do bid 1S, you endplay yourself into misdescribing your hand if your partner's rebid is 2C or 2D).

 

I've seen this many times but I am not sure if it's the best way to play.

I have two reasons for this:

 

1)Even if we have hand below invitation we still want to find spades 5-4 so we gain on hands when partner has 4♠

 

2)I think we lose very rarely. The sequence: 1♥ - 1♠ - 2m - 2♥ promises only two hearts but is quite wide ranging (6-10hcp basically) so partner will be afraid to pass being too heavy (ie. with 15hcp he will strain to bid if he has nice hand imo and definitely he will be very afraid to pass with 16's). That means we won't miss a game too often especially if our hand is weakish (I guess 9's are the worst in general). We may also find a game other people won't as: 1♥ - 1♠ - 2m - 2♥ - 2♠ locates our 5-3♠ fit which people bidding 1♥ - 2♥ will miss.

 

I haven't made any serious analysis on the matter but my feelings are that maybe this part of standard understanding should be reviewed.

It's one thing which always bothered me somehow so I would be happy if you (or anybody else) could comment on this.

[gurgistan]

I would just raise to 2♥.

 

The hand is worth 2♥, not 3♥. If you're counting HCP plus one for the doubleton, then you want at least 11 total with three trumps or 10 total with four trump. There is nothing special about this hand that would count as an exception.

 

Once you've decided the hand is worth 2♥, you don't want to respond 1♠ or 1NT because if partner bids 2 of a minor, a simple preference to 2♥ could be made on a much weaker hand.

 

If you did have a three card limit raise, I don't understand why 1NT followed by 3♥ would be a better choice than 1♠ followed by 3♥. They both show a limit raise and 1NT runs the risk of losing spades or playing in 1NT if it is semi-forcing only. Partner could pass 1NT with 4522 shape for example.

 

With your partner's hand I would have bid 2NT only, not 3NT. Either way your hand should bid 4♥ next.

I went back to my notes and I discovered I had misbid and I do indeed need another point for the course I embarked upon, which as you state would have been mistaken anyway.

 

With the point count I had, I should have bid a simple 2♥.

 

I chose to respond to your post as it told me what I should have done with my actual hand and what I should have done with a hand meeting the bare requirements for 1N, 3♥.

 

I would like to thank everyone who responded.

[nigel_k]

[2)I think we lose very rarely. The sequence: 1♥ - 1♠ - 2m - 2♥ promises only two hearts but is quite wide ranging (6-10hcp basically) so partner will be afraid to pass being too heavy (ie. with 15hcp he will strain to bid if he has nice hand imo and definitely he will be very afraid to pass with 16's). That means we won't miss a game too often especially if our hand is weakish (I guess 9's are the worst in general).

This sequence is wide ranging. The problem is that your suggestion would make it even wider.

 

I'm very happy to pass simple preference with 15 HCP knowing that we have at most 25 and no fit. With 16 and an otherwise fairly average 5-4 hand I'm not happy but still feel that pass is the percentage action. Partner also knows the situation and can stretch to bid 2NT with a good 10.

 

But this all goes out the window if partner could have 3 card support and as many as 9 HCP. Hands with three card support are much better than hands without it.

 

When responder does have the 5-3 hand , there's no problem raising if opener has 4-5 and enough for a game try as you can still get back to spades. If opener passes 2♥ then you also gain quite often because the raise makes it harder for them to get into the auction with their minor suits, compared to responding 1♠. Just getting to play the hand at a low level could be good enough.

[lexlogan]

FWIW I would not make a limit raise - I would just raise to 2H. Note that you should definitely not bid 1S if you think your hand is worth only a single raise (because, if you do bid 1S, you endplay yourself into misdescribing your hand if your partner's rebid is 2C or 2D).

 

I've seen this many times but I am not sure if it's the best way to play.

I have two reasons for this:

 

1)Even if we have hand below invitation we still want to find spades 5-4 so we gain on hands when partner has 4♠

 

2)I think we lose very rarely. The sequence: 1♥ - 1♠ - 2m - 2♥ promises only two hearts but is quite wide ranging (6-10hcp basically) so partner will be afraid to pass being too heavy (ie. with 15hcp he will strain to bid if he has nice hand imo and definitely he will be very afraid to pass with 16's). That means we won't miss a game too often especially if our hand is weakish (I guess 9's are the worst in general). We may also find a game other people won't as: 1♥ - 1♠ - 2m - 2♥ - 2♠ locates our 5-3♠ fit which people bidding 1♥ - 2♥ will miss.

 

I haven't made any serious analysis on the matter but my feelings are that maybe this part of standard understanding should be reviewed.

It's one thing which always bothered me somehow so I would be happy if you (or anybody else) could comment on this.

I'd say you will gain only rarely. With two fits, only occasionally will one play better than the other. There is little reason to assume 5-3 spades will play better than 5-3 hearts. You can still get to 5-4 spades if partner makes a game try in spades over 2H. Your hand lacks the sort of controls in the minors to expect to be able to take advantage of pitches on hearts. The only factor in favor of bidding spades is to protect the ♦K; this isn't enough to justify the overbid of driving the hand to 3H, or the underbid/misbid of 1S-then-2H.

[Free]

I think this is a simple raise, not a limit raise. So 1♥-2♥ seems obvious. If I realy had to respond something else, I'd respond 1♠ so we can find a 5-4 ♠ fit.

 

Rebidding 3NT is wrong, with 18-19 balanced you rebid 2NT. With 15-17 you start with 2m. (unless playing Gazzilli ofcourse :D )

[JLOGIC]

With 4 spades and a 3 card limit raise I start 1♠ if I think it will help partner's evaluation (for example KJxx), but not if I think it won't (Axxx or xxxx). With 5 spades and a 3 card limit raise I think I would tend to usually start 1♠ because we may have more spades than hearts, and despite recent developments in bridge theory I still tend to prefer playing in my partnership's longest combined fit.

+1

[neilkaz]

I certainly wouldn't consider responder's mundane quacky 9 count with 3 trump and a doubleton to be worth a limit raise, especially with today's style of lighter openings. I'd just raise to 2♥.

 

Opener's 3NT rebid is wrong and he has a routine raise of 1NT to 2NT which for me after opening 1M shows a good 17 to 19 HCP.

 

However, after hearing the 3NT rebid it seems quite strange to not correct to 4♥ noting the original intention to make a 3 card limit raise.

[bucky]

[hv=d=e&v=b&w=sjt865hqt2dk7cqj2&e=sak2hkj753d62cak4]266|100|Scoring: IMP

 

We are playing 2/1.

 

An uncontested auction opens with partner's 1♥. I respond 1N intending to rebid 3♥ over a minimal response and 4♥ over a favorable response by opener. Opener rebids 3N!

 

Opener is so upset with bidding he leaves the table!

 

He questions why I did not bid 1♠. I tell him we had a known fit in ♥s and so there was no need to explore ♠s.

 

So, 1♠ or 1N?

 

What do people make of opener's 3N rebid? What should it have shown?

 

Any and all help appreciated.[/hv]

After 1♥ 1NT, opener should bid 2NT showing 18-19 balanced. Yes, I know this is news for a large number of players on BBO who claim they know 2/1 or SAYC, nevertheless this is part of the system. 3NT bid should be based on good value with 6 near-solid hearts. That being said, you could still correct to 4♥ over 3NT.

 

As to whether you should respond to 1♠ with heart fit, I think it depends on the level. With a hand only worth a simple raise (which is what I evaluate this hand to be), you should bypass spades and directly bid 2♥. Otherwise the bidding might go 1♥ 1♠ 2♣ 2♥, which sounds like a simple preference with doubleton heart, and that may cause opener to misjudge on borderline hands. Or the opponents may interfere and you find yourself guessing at 3+ level without having shown heart support earlier.

 

If you evaluate a hand to be of limit raise strength, then it is often right to start with 1♠ response, unless you hate your spade suit. A possible spade fit (or not) may be the key to decide whether you should be in game (and which game). Also, if partner has a strong hand, for example 18-19 balanced, 1♥ 1♠ 2NT 3♥ should be forcing (and implies limit+ hand), while 1♥ 1NT 2NT 3♥ can be played as non-forcing, showing 3-card support in 4-5 hcp range. Of course this depends on your structure in those sequences, but I am just pointing out the possibility that a different response earlier may affect the meaning of your later bids, and you need to have plans for them when you decide on what to respond in first round.

 

A side question for you (and rest of posters as well): how do you play 1♥ 1♠ 2♠ 3♥? Do you treat this as forcing?

[kenrexford]

Simple 2♥ bid. But, this is a lot easier when partner is allowed to bid 2♠ as a natural GT. SSGT's are a problem for this situation.