When NOT to use STAYMAN?

[gurgistan]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sak84haq7da86cak5&s=sqj73h9632d32cj86]133|200|Scoring: IMP

It is passed out to me as North. I bid 2♣. In an uncontested auction it then goes: 2♦, 2N, 3N.

 

It appears clear to me that Partner should have instigated Stayman and the contract should have been played out in 4♠.

 

However, 11 tables played in 3N and 1 table played in 2N. Only four suit contracts were found; 1 South was tops with 2♥XX, 2 tables were in 6♠ and both went down one, and only one table found 4♠ and made an overtrick for second top.

 

How could so many tables not find 4♠?

 

I thought it was automatic to use Stayman in the above sort of hands.

 

When would it be correct to not use Stayman?[/hv]

[bluecalm]

I thought it was automatic to use Stayman in the above sort of hands.

 

Yes, you are right.

 

How could so many tables not find 4♠?

 

Maybe the field was very weak ?

[BudH]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sak84haq7da86cak5&s=sqj73h9632d32cj86]133|200|Scoring: IMP

It is passed out to me as North. I bid 2♣. In an uncontested auction it then goes: 2♦, 2N, 3N.

 

It appears clear to me that Partner should have instigated Stayman and the contract should have been played out in 4♠.

 

However, 11 tables played in 3N and 1 table played in 2N. Only four suit contracts were found; 1 South was tops with 2♥XX, 2 tables were in 6♠ and both went down one, and only one table found 4♠ and made an overtrick for second top.

 

How could so many tables not find 4♠?

 

I thought it was automatic to use Stayman in the above sort of hands.

 

When would it be correct to not use Stayman?[/hv]

I admit I might be tempted to bid 3NT with

 

♠8732 ♥9632 ♦QJ ♣J86

 

(if I didn't pass 2NT) but with

 

♠QJ73 ♥9632 ♦32 ♣J86

 

I definitely use Stayman.

[CSGibson]

Many of the tables probably had auctions like: 2♣-2♥*-3N (*Negative response)

 

or

 

2♣-2♦-3N

 

The first auction type is probably where 2♥ XX came from, too.

[aguahombre]

Gibson is probably right about what happened at other tables. I see no particular reason to rebid anything but a 22+-24 2NT ---nor any reason not to stayman/2NT.

[gurgistan]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sak84haq7da86cak5&s=sqj73h9632d32cj86]133|200|Scoring: IMP

It is passed out to me as North. I bid 2♣. In an uncontested auction it then goes: 2♦, 2N, 3N.

 

It appears clear to me that Partner should have instigated Stayman and the contract should have been played out in 4♠.

 

However, 11 tables played in 3N and 1 table played in 2N. Only four suit contracts were found; 1 South was tops with 2♥XX, 2 tables were in 6♠ and both went down one, and only one table found 4♠ and made an overtrick for second top.

 

How could so many tables not find 4♠?

 

I thought it was automatic to use Stayman in the above sort of hands.

 

When would it be correct to not use Stayman?[/hv]

I admit I might be tempted to bid 3NT with

 

♠8732 ♥9632 ♦QJ ♣J86

 

(if I didn't pass 2NT) but with

 

♠QJ73 ♥9632 ♦32 ♣J86

 

I definitely use Stayman.

Would anyone else take suit quality into account for whether or not Stayman should be used?

[Gerben42]

A reason for not using Stayman would NOT be the suit quality, rather it would be on typical hands that have the following attributes:

 

* My hand is balanced

* We have significantly more than 25 HCP (28 - 29 is perfect)

* Aces and spaces in trump suit, Quacks on the side

 

Assuming you have shown 23-24 with 2♣ then 2NT, I would not bid Stayman on:

 

Axxx

xxx

Qxx

xxx

 

With 4-4 majors it seems a bit weird to not use Stayman...

[doclands]

Your question was when not to use Stayman. A common failing is to not use Stayman when you are 4333 - failing to realise that partner doesn't have to be 4333 as well - more usually partner will be 4432 and the extra trick and trump control is there. If you have a system which can find whether partner is 4333 then use it and play in 3N when both hands are 4333. Also I suggest you think of playing in 3N when you are 5332 and partner is 4333 and you have a 5-3 fit - but play in 4M if it is the 5-4 fit.

 

Does point count come into the equation and very poor trump suit and soft and hard values - of course - nobody said Stayman was easy :). Good rule of thumb - always play in your 8 card major fit unless you are both 4333 or 5332 opposite 4333 unless you have an extremely good reason for not doing so. One hand being 4333 is not a good enough reason, but unfortunately many think that it is, sadly including many of our county team players ;)

[gurgistan]

Your question was when not to use Stayman. A common failing is to not use Stayman when you are 4333 - failing to realise that partner doesn't have to be 4333 as well - more usually partner will be 4432 and the extra trick and trump control is there. If you have a system which can find whether partner is 4333 then use it and play in 3N when both hands are 4333. Also I suggest you think of playing in 3N when you are 5332 and partner is 4333 and you have a 5-3 fit - but play in 4M if it is the 5-4 fit.

 

Does point count come into the equation and very poor trump suit and soft and hard values - of course - nobody said Stayman was easy :). Good rule of thumb - always play in your 8 card major fit unless you are both 4333 or 5332 opposite 4333 unless you have an extremely good reason for not doing so. One hand being 4333 is not a good enough reason, but unfortunately many think that it is, sadly including many of our county team players :(

This very interesting and very tantalizing.

 

How am I to discover we are both 4333 or one of us is 5332?

[bluecalm]

A common failing is to not use Stayman when you are 4333

 

I disagree with that. I think it's common failing to bid stayman with 4-3-3-3.

I am not bidding stayman ith 4-3-3-3 even after 1NT opening (where it's easy to have a system which discovers 4-3-3-3 opposite 4-3-3-3) because I think giving away information to opponents outweights any possible gains from accurate bidding in this case.

After 2NT I am pretty sure bidding anything but 3NT with any 4-3-3-3 is just bad bridge.

[655321]

Agree with bluecalm, disagree with doclands. As a general rule I don't Stayman with 4333 hands.

[gwnn]

It's fine to Stayman if you have a low trebleton, but it's also fine not to Stayman. As usual, many approaches have merit and it is very difficult to make a good distinction between them. If I were old and wise I'd now say "do whatever you're most comfortable with" but since I'm young and insolent I realise that this is quite unhelpful to hear so I'll say that nowadays I just stopped staymanning with 4333 unless slam interest and I'm happy with it (personal testimonies are often the best you can help for).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 Stayman with the South hand is automatic, you are 4-4

#2 If you are 4333, than opinions differ, but a simple hard fast rule, is

to use Stayman, if you have a 4 card major, that is the rule I use.

#3 If you know, that you have approximat 30HCP, and you dont have

ruffing values, than it is reasonable to ignore a possible major suit fit

#4 Depending on field strength, I would usually ignore, what the field is

doing.

After a diamond attack, you will need to take your top tricks in 3NT,

since you will at least 3 diamond tricks, and you may loose 4.

=> This means you take 4Spades, 2Hearts (assuming the finesse holds),

1Diamond, 2 Clubs, meaning you make 9 tricks in 3NT, unless I have

overlooked something stupid, hence 4S will usually outscore 3NT, if

the Queen of clubs comes down, you make 10, this 10th trick is not

really likely.

Playing with spades as trumps, you make

5Spades (one ruff), 1 diamond, 2Hearts (assuming the finesse holds),

2 Clubs (or 3Clubs), i.e. 10 or if NT makes 10 than 11.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: Playing MP - Peoble will tell you, that NT counts 10 points more, implying,

that you get a Top more easily, they quite often forget to add, that this is only

true, if playing NT yields the same number of tricks, when playing 4M, most of the

time playing 4M will bring an add. trick, for one exception see #3.

Another one is mirror shape, espesially in the case of 4333 (thats why peoble

dont use stayman with 4333), to detect mirror shapes, there are conventions out

there, which help you with this issue.

[gurgistan]

Another one is mirror shape, espesially in the case of 4333 (thats why peoble

dont use stayman with 4333), to detect mirror shapes, there are conventions out

there, which help you with this issue.

Thanks for your post, Marlowe.

 

I tried googling the phrase "When not to use stayman" in quotes and got 8 hits. Nothng but the obvious.

 

I need the name of a convention that locates the 4333 shapes so I can research it.

 

Much obliged.

[P_Marlowe]

Another one is mirror shape, espesially in the case of 4333 (thats why peoble

dont use stayman with 4333), to detect mirror shapes, there are conventions out

there, which help you with this issue.

Thanks for your post, Marlowe.

 

I tried googling the phrase "When not to use stayman" in quotes and got 8 hits. Nothng but the obvious.

 

I need the name of a convention that locates the 4333 shapes so I can research it.

 

Much obliged.

Hi,

 

I dont know the name of the convention, but I was refering to

the agreement, that a 3H or 3S response to a 1NT opening, i.e

 

1NT - 3H

 

or

 

1NT - 3S

 

showed a 4333 pattern with 4 cards in the other major, to right side

the contract.

If you dont use the 3H / 3S bid at the moment, this usage is as good as

anything else.

 

After a 2NT opening bid, I am not sure, if there is something similar,

my guess is no, and it is even questionable, if it would make sense, since

in this scenario one hand is quite strong, the other is weak, and making

the long suit of the weak hand trumps is usually a good idea for entry, if

for entry reasons alone.

You dont generate entries being 4333 with a trump suit, but I doubt that

lots of though went into this, since space is rare and you need room for

single and two suiters.

 

After a 2C oopenings, you have the options to use some relais systems, which

should do the trick, as long as one can be bothered to take this stuff, since

you wont be able to use it often.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[doclands]

Hi I use Keri over 1N.

 

1N - 2C (forces 2D and creates several uses for a lot of bids)

2D (forced) - 2N (GF)

3C = no 5cd M and not 4333 of any sort (now 3D asks for 4cd M and 3M shows 5cd M)

3D = 4333 (any 4)

3M = 5cd M

 

I will do a fairly full keri if it is wanted but I am going on holiday for 3 weeks so it will have to be later.

 

 

I have to analyse countless hands from county teams matches played by our teams of 8 and time after time they lose out by not using Stayman on 4333 when partner opens 1N. I often do 40-48 boards for 3 teams of 8, so 12 pairs so I get a lot of feedback and that is my experience.

 

I know some will disagree but that is what is great about bridge :lol:

[pooltuna]

Caveat! these are definitely IMO and not something I read somewhere.

 

1]Don't bother with Stayman if your side's assets are in the 28-30HCP range as 3NT is generally safer and at MPs usually makes the same # of trix as 4M

 

2]If your side's assets are in the 29+ - 32HCP range and you have no easy way to find out if you have a 9+ card major suit fit then use Stayman instead of transferring to the M for your slam try auction.

[pooltuna]

Agree with bluecalm, disagree with doclands. As a general rule I don't Stayman with 4333 hands.

agree with the phone number

[Zelandakh]

I need the name of a convention that locates the 4333 shapes so I can research it.

The original convention name (over 1NT) is SID = Stayman in Doubt. It's basically the use of a 3D bid after a 2M response to asks for a 4333 shape and doubles as the strong (slam try) raise to start a cue auction. It has largely fallen into disfavour and probably the main reason is the combination of wanting to use the bid for something more useful and simulation work that suggests looking for a major fit with 4333 shape is an overall IMP/MP loser. Nonetheless the moderm tweak of playing

 

1N - 2C - 2H - 3D and

1N - 2C - 2S - 3H

 

as 4333 or a slam try raise fits nicely into lots of NT structures without losing very much. Opener bids 3 of the major with the 4333 hand and makes a cue or 3NT bid otherwise. The only thing you really lose is the ability to make a serious/frivolous slam try in the event that Opener is 4333. Obviously you also lose the natural meanings of 3D/3H too, but most pairs want a strong raise here so that's not a major issue.

[bucky]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sak84haq7da86cak5&s=sqj73h9632d32cj86]133|200|Scoring: IMP

It is passed out to me as North. I bid 2♣. In an uncontested auction it then goes: 2♦, 2N, 3N.

 

It appears clear to me that Partner should have instigated Stayman and the contract should have been played out in 4♠.

 

However, 11 tables played in 3N and 1 table played in 2N. Only four suit contracts were found; 1 South was tops with 2♥XX, 2 tables were in 6♠ and both went down one, and only one table found 4♠ and made an overtrick for second top.

 

How could so many tables not find 4♠?

 

I thought it was automatic to use Stayman in the above sort of hands.

 

When would it be correct to not use Stayman?[/hv]

Is this played on BBO? One problem I have with BBO regular game (non-tourney) is that, each hand is only played 16 times. If you consider the huge number of players with vast difference in levels, and that advanced or expert players are really at a very small percentage (although the ratio of ones who CLAIM adv/exp is overwhelmingly high), the results from 16 tables don't mean much. It is not surprising to find that, for many hands, none of the biddings at those 16 tables is "normal", although quite often at some of these tables reasonable contracts may have landed even with eccentric bidding. What I don't understand is why we cannot score across a larger field (say, 1600 tables), given that BBO is supported by computer programs, and that collecting results and scoring properly shouldn't be too hard.

[lexlogan]

I did an extensive analysis of 4333 hands opposite a 15-17 notrump. There are four reasons not to use Stayman:

 

(1) Partner may also be 4333 (mirror shape.)

(2) They may double 2C for the lead.

(3) They may benefit from the info about opener's hand.

(4) The trump suit may divide badly.

 

No one reason is sufficient to avoid Stayman, and all but #1 apply to 4432 hands. (If partner has mirror 4432, notrump is probably wrong.) But #1 is sufficient to tip the balance against using Stayman; it occurs a whopping 33.6% when partner has four cards in your major. Meanwhile, partner is only about 33% to fit your major, and that along with reasons 2-4 argue against such nonsense as Stayman In Doubt.

 

On the other hand, these days players open notrump frequently with 5332 and 4225 hands, which reduces the odds of mirror shape and may well swing the balance back in favor of using Stayman on 4333 hands. If partner opens all 5332's in range, the odds that he will be 4333 when he matches your major drops to 24.4%. That still makes the odds of either 4333 or a bad break around 50%, but the 5-4 fit may play a lot better in the suit and throw in some 4225's and it may be worth it. Even 4333 opposite 4333 will sometimes play better in the suit.