Double or 1NT

[H_KARLUK]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skqtxhaqxdqtxcatx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Playing 2/1 GF, sitting at East after righty's 1♣ opening would you double or bid 1NT?

 

One idea is double, if p responds 1♥/1♦. wld rebid 1N, showing 16-18. If p bid ♠ might lead to a better contract than a direct 1N overcall.

 

The other idea is 1N, 17 hcp and 4x3, thinking what else and 100% correct call...if you double and then bid 1NT it shows 18+ to 20-.

 

Which one would you adopt? Or maybe you'd rather share a different idea.

 

Ty.

 

Ps. This is a book hand and its all about to learn others idea while we discuss it with a GLM.

[the hog]

If you play a 15-17 NT overcall, then doubling and bidding NT does not show 15-17 as well. It shows more, eg 18-19.. You cannot have your cake and eat it as well. I would bid 1NT on this hand as it gets the hand off my chest in one bid.

[Phil]

1N.

 

...while we discuss it with a GLM.

 

I feel like we need to cue some music or something. :ph34r:

[JLOGIC]

[comments edited: some stuff removed since post was relocated] [This was inquiry -jlall]

 

Edit: My post seems mean now that the thread was moved so I just removed it all. Thanks inquiry -Jlall

 

H Karluk you have to bid 1N with this hand. Double and 1N doesn't mean you were looking for a major suit fit, it means you had a hand too strong to overcall 1N. Therefore it wouldn't be 16-18 to double and bid 1N.

 

Hopefully you see the error in your thought process now.

Edited August 29, 2010 by JLOGIC

[P_Marlowe]

Since we play, that a 1NT overcall is 15-17/18, I would need to start with a

double, since this hand is way to strong for this agreement.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[hanp]

1NT, no alternative.

 

I coun't 17 Marlowe.

[jillybean]

1N, why would you be discussing this with a Grand Life Master?

[Phil]

1N, why would you be discussing this with a Grand Life Master?

Becuz amigo,i don't care favoritism.2 kind of stars on BBO,1st Disney World,2nd Real World!Recently silly kids lost th plot,refused an idea established in a famous american author in top 20 on th all-time ACBL, won 5 timz Vanderbilt, 4 timz Reisinger, twice Men teams and many Spingold, blue ribbon pairs victories etc. But th problem is they think "just a book" . Such crazee kids dying to boast tho they didn't won big boyz World Champisonship like th author, beyond funneeh..

 

(thats why :angry:)

[JLOGIC]

1N,  why would you be discussing this with a Grand Life Master?

Becuz amigo,i don't care favoritism.2 kind of stars on BBO,1st Disney World,2nd Real World!Recently silly kids lost th plot,refused an idea established in a famous american author in top 20 on th all-time ACBL, won 5 timz Vanderbilt, 4 timz Reisinger, twice Men teams and many Spingold, blue ribbon pairs victories etc. But th problem is they think "just a book" . Such crazee kids dying to boast tho they didn't won big boyz World Champisonship like th author, beyond funneeh..

 

(thats why :angry:)

Heh the one I saw was:

 

"O yea amigo,i don't care favoritism.2 kind of stars on BBO,1st Disney World,2nd Real World!Recently silly kids lost th plot,refused an idea established in a famous american author, ...in top 20 on th all-time ACBL, won 5 timz Vanderbilt, 4 timz Reisinger, twice Men teams and many Spingold, blue ribbon pairs victories etc. But th problem is they think "just a ...book" . Such bipolar kids dying to boast tho they didn't won big boyz World Champisonship like th author, beyond funneeh.."

 

H_Karluk conveniently insta signed off after writing this to the cayne spec chat, classy :)

[billw55]

I think this is close. I agree with Hog that double then NT shows more, but how much more? With three tens and tenaces over opener in every suit, this hand is worth more than 17.

 

At the table, I would probably decide that double then NT shows too much, and I would hold back to a heavy 1NT. But I could not criticize partner for either choice.

[peachy]

1NT.

This is not even a good 17HCP. K&R evaluates it as 16.80. More common evaluation methods say: worst shape and only 5 controls. So it is an average plus hand in 15-17 NT overcall range and an average minus in 16-18 NT overcall range.

 

Un upgradeable hand would have a suit to run and six+ controls. Or at least a great 17.

[billw55]

1NT.

This is not even a good 17HCP. K&R evaluates it as 16.80. More common evaluation methods say: worst shape and only 5 controls. So it is an average plus hand in 15-17 NT overcall range and an average minus in 16-18 NT overcall range.

 

Un upgradeable hand would have a suit to run and six+ controls. Or at least a great 17.

Interesting! What is K&R?

[peachy]

1NT.

This is not even a good 17HCP. K&R evaluates it as 16.80.  More common evaluation methods say: worst shape and only 5 controls. So it is an average plus hand in 15-17 NT overcall range and an average minus in 16-18 NT overcall range. 

 

Un upgradeable hand would have a suit to run and six+ controls. Or at least a great 17.

Interesting! What is K&R?

A hand evaluator that to my knowledge is a well-respected and trusted tool, although "common sense" works almost as well.

http://www.jeff-goldsmith.org/cgi-bin/knr.cgi

[billw55]

aha, that's interesting. But it seems to only evaluate the naked hand, without considering the bidding. In this case all those tenaces have added positional value over the opening bidder. Or at least, so I think.

[aguahombre]

Yep "KNR"= K&R. and it says 16.80, right in the middle of the 15-18 range.

 

Positionals over the opener are of interest, but maybe countered by the unlikely ability to get to dummy much.

[neilkaz]

For me a 1NT overcall is a very good 15 count to a good 18 count. This looks like a good 17 count to me and I will happily overcall 1NT and don't consider it nearly too good.

[bucky]

aha, that's interesting. But it seems to only evaluate the naked hand, without considering the bidding. In this case all those tenaces have added positional value over the opening bidder. Or at least, so I think.

If partner cannot make a move after 1NT overcall, the contract is probably high enough. Yes the tenaces are nice, but how many times can partner get in to make them work?

[bucky]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=skqtxhaqxdqtxcatx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Playing 2/1 GF, sitting at East after righty's 1♣ opening would you double or bid 1NT?

 

One idea is double, if p responds 1♥/1♦. wld rebid 1N, showing 16-18. If p bid ♠ might lead to a better contract than a direct 1N overcall.

 

The other idea is 1N, 17 hcp and 4x3, thinking what else and 100% correct call...if you double and then bid 1NT it shows 18+ to 20-.

 

Which one would you adopt? Or maybe you'd rather share a different idea.

 

Ty.

 

Ps. This is a book hand and its all about to learn others idea while we discuss it with a GLM.

Double then bidding 1NT shows a higher range than direct 1NT overcall. Just like doubling followed by a new suit shows a hand that is too good to make a simple overcall. As for the spade fit, if partner has enough value, he can still find the fit by stayman.