Two sequences

[Phil]

Two auctions came up in bidding practice today. Would appreciate your opinions about what they mean (no interference):

 

1. 2N - 4♥ - 4♠ - 5N

 

2. 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣

 

thanks

[JLOGIC]

1. grand slam force

 

2. stronger than bidding 4H (guarantees 6 hearts).

[BudH]

Two auctions came up in bidding practice today. Would appreciate your opinions about what they mean (no interference):

 

1. 2N - 4♥ - 4♠ - 5N

 

2. 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣

 

thanks

1. Grand Slam Force

 

There are other ways to give a choice of 6♠ or 6NT. Such as transferring to THREE spades and then jumping to 5NT.

 

 

2. Control in clubs in support of a heart contract.

[aguahombre]

1. GSF...bud covered why it is different from the other thread.

2. Pattern fragment. We could easily belong in clubs opposite JXXX XX X KQXXXX.

[jdonn]

1. grand slam force

 

2. stronger than bidding 4H (guarantees 6 hearts).

yes

yes

 

2. Pattern fragment.  We could easily belong in clubs opposite JXXX XX X KQXXXX.

Or in 3NT Opposite KQxx xx x Jxxxxx....

[JLOGIC]

2. Control in clubs in support of a heart contract.

I don't think it can be this specific. 3H does not agree hearts, so trumps are not yet set. That means opener has the following bids:

 

3S-natural usually 3 spades, can be 2542 no club stopper and Hx of spades also, spades might be our fit if responder is 5-2 in the majors.

3N-natural, 3N might be our spot since we have no guaranteed fit, opener can be 1543 with clubs stopped once

4D-natural 5-5, diamonds might be our best fit still

 

So when we want to bid 4H, we have 2 bids, 4H and 4C. 4C is the better one, but it's non specific other than that. I would bid 4C with A AKQxxx AJTx xx for instance (or whatever the maximum non 2C opener is to you).

[BudH]

2.  Control in clubs in support of a heart contract.

I don't think it can be this specific. 3H does not agree hearts, so trumps are not yet set. That means opener has the following bids:

 

3S-natural usually 3 spades, can be 2542 no club stopper and Hx of spades also, spades might be our fit if responder is 5-2 in the majors.

3N-natural, 3N might be our spot since we have no guaranteed fit, opener can be 1543 with clubs stopped once

4D-natural 5-5, diamonds might be our best fit still

 

So when we want to bid 4H, we have 2 bids, 4H and 4C. 4C is the better one, but it's non specific other than that. I would bid 4C with A AKQxxx AJTx xx for instance (or whatever the maximum non 2C opener is to you).

I agree 3♥ could be a doubleton preference.

 

4♣ could easily be a hand with a 3-card fragment that isn't right for bidding 3NT.

 

I admit the idea of bidding 4♣ with A AKQxxx AJTx xx is very foreign to me. Not that I'm saying it's wrong. Both partners better have some good agreements to know this is a possibility.

[bluecalm]

Oh no, jumping with 4cards again :)

And then constructing tons of agreements to solve problems only known to such systems :-)

[gnasher]

Oh no, jumping with 4cards again :)

And then constructing tons of agreements to solve problems only known to such systems :-)

By "tons of agreements" you mean the somewhat less than revolutionary idea that when there is only one slam try available it doesn't say anything speicific about any suit?

[JLOGIC]

Oh no, jumping with 4cards again :)

And then constructing tons of agreements to solve problems only known to such systems :-)

Who said we showed 4 cards in diamonds? :)

 

Anyways whats so hard about this auction. As gnasher says this concept comes up all the time, especially in 2/1 auctions and also in strong club auctions.

[Phil]

1. I thought GSF, he thought 6(322) with a choice of slams. I think that's wrong.

 

2. I held AKx KQTxxx AKx x (notice <4♦s's? :) ). I thought 4♣ was clear about strain (definitely six hearts!), and didn't want to create doubt with 3♠.

 

However, afterward I was wondering what I would bid with a really good 1543- do I have to bid 3N on a hand like this, and maybe I don't want to bound to 4N to show my extras? 4♣ I thought could be a nudge with a lot of extras and a five card heart suit.

 

Otherwise, definitely agree with JL about the other follow-ups.

[aguahombre]

2. I held AKx KQTxxx AKx x (notice <4♦s's?  :) ). I thought 4♣ was clear about strain (definitely six hearts!), and didn't want to create doubt with 3♠.

I am confused as to how 3S creates doubt. It is forcing because the jump shift was forcing to game. It shows spade support, but only 3 (no jump to 4S after the j.s to diamonds). It shows club shortness because you bid the other three suits. And, you can remove 3NT to 4H, if there is doubt you have six hearts.

[JLOGIC]

However, afterward I was wondering what I would bid with a really good 1543

3N of course, your partner hasn't shown any values or 3 hearts. If parnter has a good hand with 3 hearts he will show it over 3N. If your hand is so good that you want to drive to 4N with no fit opposite a 1S response to 1H, maybe you should open 2C

[Phil]

2. I held AKx KQTxxx AKx x (notice <4♦s's?  :) ). I thought 4♣ was clear about strain (definitely six hearts!), and didn't want to create doubt with 3♠.

I am confused as to how 3S creates doubt. It is forcing because the jump shift was forcing to game. It shows spade support, but only 3 (no jump to 4S). It shows club shortness because you bid the other three suits. And, you can remove 3NT to 4H, if there is doubt you have six hearts.

Assume you are speaking of my hand of AKx KQTxxx AKx x

 

Of course 3♠ is forcing - does this really need to be stated?

 

So when pard bids 4♣ over 3♠, is this a cue for hearts (with a limit raise for instance), for spades with a good hand? Or some sort of artificial move forward?

 

How about 4♦? Cue for spades? Maybe four diamonds and an exploration for strain with 4243? Cue for hearts? Endless ughs here.

 

I hope you can appreciate how 3♠ can create issues!

[aguahombre]

So 4C would create the confusion, because I have to bid 4H, whatever it means. Ok, I can understand that. But showing my spade support is more clear with 3S than with 4C over the mark-time 3H preference.

 

It seems wrong to make a confusing bid yourself, in anticipation that partner will make a confusing bid.

Edited August 29, 2010 by aguahombre

[jdonn]

It would be good to agree over 3♠ that 4♣/4♦ are artificial slam tries (flags?) for hearts/spades. This could be part of a more general agreement about when it's not clear what trumps are and you are at this level so I don't think it's so far-fetched.

 

What is this talk about bidding 4♣ with 1543 hands? When I have shortness in partner's suit and he hasn't shown any values then I'm not going to bypass our most likely game! To make it clear, you can't bid above 3NT since you way way way way way too often belong in 3NT.

[bluecalm]

By "tons of agreements" you mean the somewhat less than revolutionary idea that when there is only one slam try available it doesn't say anything speicific about any suit?

 

I was referring to those fragment bids which cater for all 5-4-3-1's.

I agree with jdonn that bidding 4♣ to show 3clubs when bypassing 3NT is silly.

 

It would be good to agree over 3♠ that 4♣/4♦ are artificial slam tries (flags?) for hearts/spades. This could be part of a more general agreement about when it's not clear what trumps are and you are at this level so I don't think it's so far-fetched.

 

I agree with that. It kinda suck that we are that high and are in the process of finding trumps but sometimes it happen.

I guess something similar could be use after:

 

2NT - 3♦

3♥ - 3♠

????

 

 

If that happens to show major 2suiter in your system.

 

3S-natural usually 3 spades, can be 2542 no club stopper and Hx of spades also, spades might be our fit if responder is 5-2 in the majors.

 

I see a problem with that.

If 3♠ might be Hx what is partner supposed to do with 5 not so good spades and club stopper ?

He would like to be in 4♠ opposite real support but he has to worry about 3♠ being seminatural.

[bluecalm]

BTW as to OP's hand.

I wonder how would you guys untagle this if responder had say: 5-2-4-2 shape and just raised diamonds to 4♦ after 3♦.

Now we have a situation where we are at 4 level and 7 card diamond fit is set as trumps with 8 (or 9 if responder is 6-1-4-2 with weakish spades and slam going values) spades chilling on the side...

[JLOGIC]

I see a problem with that.

If 3♠ might be Hx what is partner supposed to do with 5 not so good spades and club stopper ?

He would like to be in 4♠ opposite real support but he has to worry  about 3♠ being seminatural.

If neither of you has a club stopper, he has to play a 5-2 fit. I guess your point is you might belong in a 5-2 heart fit instead of a 5-2 spade fit? I guess but I wouldn't worry that much about it, it seems like a very specific thing that has to happen:

 

-You have to have no fit

-You have to have no club stopper

-You have to have bad spades

-Your partner has to have the 2542 instead of 3541

-Hearts has to play better than spades despite both being a 5-2 fit.

 

In general I just wouldn't worry about it, getting to a 5-2 spade fit instead of a 5-2 heart fit will usually be fine even when it happens.

 

Anyways I'm not sure what solution you're offering. 3S is out of necessity either 3 spades or 2542 with no club stopper, unless you're just going to bid 3N with no club stopper which seems worse. What do you suggest? 4H with 2542 and very chunky hearts is probably a good idea and is what I would always do with 2 small hearts and 2 small clubs (since my reds would be loaded), I don't think 3N is ever a good idea

 

If this is just another one of your "don't play SAYC 2/1 posts" I'm not that interested in it. If you hate sayc/2/1/jumpshifts so much then don't post in the sayc 2/1 forum. It is not helpful when someone posts a jumpshift auction and asks what stuff should mean to say not to play jump shifts!

[bluecalm]

If neither of you has a club stopper, he has to play a 5-2 fit. I guess your point is you might belong in a 5-2 heart fit instead of a 5-2 spade fit? I guess but I wouldn't worry that much about it, it seems like a very specific thing that has to happen:

 

I mean getting to 3NT instead of 5-3 spade fit or to 5-2 spade fit instead of 3NT.

 

1♥ 1♠

3♦ 3♥

3♠ ????

 

Now responder is sitting at:

 

K8xxx Kx xx A9xx

J8xxx Ax xx K9xx etc.

 

He wants to be in 4♠ if opener has 3spades but wants to be in 3NT if opener has 2 spades.

On the other hand opener can't go to 4♠ himself after 3NT because responder could still have something like 4-2-2-KQT9x

[JLOGIC]

Sorry I thought you said 5 bad spades without a club stopper, you said 5 bad spades WITH a club stopper.

 

Yes, that is certainly a problem.

[gnasher]

It would be good to agree over 3♠ that 4♣/4♦ are artificial slam tries (flags?) for hearts/spades. This could be part of a more general agreement about when it's not clear what trumps are and you are at this level so I don't think it's so far-fetched.

It's not far-fetched to have that general agremeent, but I'm not sure if it should apply here. Could responder be 4243, and want to bid a natural 4♦?

[qwery_hi]

Two auctions came up in bidding practice today. Would appreciate your opinions about what they mean (no interference):

 

1. 2N - 4♥ - 4♠ - 5N

 

2. 1♥ - 1♠ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 4♣

 

thanks

1. Grand Slam Force

 

There are other ways to give a choice of 6♠ or 6NT. Such as transferring to THREE spades and then jumping to 5NT.

 

 

2. Control in clubs in support of a heart contract.

Aren't there other ways to find out if opener has 2/3 top trumps? So why should 5NT be GSF here?

[bluecalm]

Could responder be 4243, and want to bid a natural 4♦?

 

Why wouldn't he bid 4♦ as his 2nd bid with that hand though ? (or 3NT if clubs are heavy).

Even playing artificial 3♦ (like OP) which doesn't really show diamonds it's quite safe because if opener doesn't have diamonds (as the original hand) he has 6+ hearts.

Giving false preference with 4 card support to what is normally 5+ card suit is bizarre idea to me.

[Phil]

Could responder be 4243, and want to bid a natural 4♦?

 

Why wouldn't he bid 4♦ as his 2nd bid with that hand though ? (or 3NT if clubs are heavy).

Even playing artificial 3♦ (like OP) which doesn't really show diamonds it's quite safe because if opener doesn't have diamonds (as the original hand) he has 6+ hearts.

Giving false preference with 4 card support to what is normally 5+ card suit is bizarre idea to me.

I don't think its an accurate characterization to call 3♦ 'artificial'. It is nominally a natural call, however it may be a fragment in some cases.

 

Raising to 4♦ is fine with a 4243 if partner runs back to hearts or presses on with diamonds, but when partner is 1543 we might be playing a lousy 5♦ cold for 3N. I see nothing wrong with a false preference to 3♥ with a doubleton, even if 3♦ promises at least four.

 

I know you have a problem with these ambiguous jump shifts, and I shared this view when I started posting on the forums. Methods like strong club, Gazzilli, PC, Acol and even SEF avoid the need to make calls like 3♦ with good hands. These methods create other issues, and nothing is perfect.

 

2/1 is the lingua franca of the USA, and we must figure out the best ways to be able to cope with these occasionally awkward sequences.