Open what?

[jillybean]

We've just had a great (57.6%) game at the club tonight, here's the one hand I'd like to have again:

 

[hv=d=s&v=b&s=saq9643ht84d32ca5]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Your bid.

[bluecalm]

My view is that passing sucks but it may be necessary.

Most people play a style where you can't open 2♠ with this hand. Good or bad you can't expect partner expecting that much for 2♠ even vulnerable.

That leave 1♠.

My view is that unfortunately it will cause going overboard very often if you don't have good partnertship understanding. Unfortunately in standard the sequence:

 

1♠ - 1NT

2♠ is basically 10-15hcp so it's close to impossible to make good decisions as responder. You will misguess quite often.

 

So... playing matchpoints with partner who isn't truly great I would pass it because I think opening cause too many bad boards.

 

Playing standardish system but in my pet style I would open this 2♠ as I like to play those as more constructive than classical.

 

Playing imps I of course always open no matter who I play with or what system is this.

[gwnn]

1♠

 

if you don't like 1♠, bid 2♠ and show a maximum.

[apjames]

6 losers and a six card suit, I'd open 1♠

[peachy]

1S. It may not work out well but the hazards in the alternatives (Pass or 2S) are probably just as bad, or worse.

[bluecalm]

6 losers and a six card suit, I'd open 1♠

 

I don't see a point in pointing out how many "losers" the hand has but didn't you miscount them losers on this one ?

[the hog]

2S

[JLOGIC]

I like 2S vul but it's a style thing.

[jillybean]

I opened 2♠ and partner bid 4♥, which I took to be a splinter

 

2♠:4♥

4♠:5♥

 

AQ9643, T84, 32, A5

opposite

5,AKQJ762,T,KQJT

 

The auction could have been

2♠:3♥

4♥:4♠*

5♦*:6♥

 

Or, if I open 1♠ it is easy to find.

[the hog]

I opened 2♠ and partner bid 4♥, which I took to be a splinter

 

2♠:4♥

4♠:5♥

 

AQ9643, T84, 32, A5

opposite

5,AKQJ762,T,KQJT

 

The auction could have been

2♠:3♥

4♥:4♠*

5♦*:6♥

 

Or, if I open 1♠ it is easy to find.

There is not really much of a point in playing splinters opposite a weak 2. Partner probably doesn't have any wasted values to evaluate.

[jillybean]

So 4♥ should be to play and 3♥ stronger?

[karlson]

I've seen many an experienced partnership have an accident with 2♠-4♥.

[JLOGIC]

I've seen many an experienced partnership have an accident with 2♠-4♥.

?!

 

Jumps to game are to play, especially over a preempt!

 

Jilly, over 2S p 3H p your hand is much too good to just bid 4H, I would bid 4C which is a cuebid. Over that partner can bid 4D, as you might still be off 3 aces (KQJxxx xxx Kxx x), and with 2 aces partner will certainly move over 4D.

[Cascade]

I don't believe there is a gap between 1♠ and 2♠. So it is either 1♠ or 2♠. I don't care much the most important thing is that partner is on the same wavelength - its most important that partner knows what you will do not that you will necessarily judge exactly the same as your partner.

[Cascade]

Jumps to game are to play, especially over a preempt!

That is not universally true.

 

Many play 1♠ 4♥ as a splinter which is analogous to this auction.

 

Again the most important thing is that you are agreed with partner.

[JLOGIC]

Jumps to game are to play, especially over a preempt!

That is not universally true.

 

Many play 1♠ 4♥ as a splinter which is analogous to this auction.

 

Again the most important thing is that you are agreed with partner.

Yes 1S-4H is the specific exception to that rule if you play it that doesn't involve bidding their suit. I would take 1S-4H as natural with no agreement. I would say that makes it one of the most hard and fast rules in bridge!

 

By the way, 1S p 4H and 2S p 4H are in no way analagous.

[karlson]

Jumps to game are to play, especially over a preempt!

That is not universally true.

 

Many play 1♠ 4♥ as a splinter which is analogous to this auction.

 

Again the most important thing is that you are agreed with partner.

Yes 1S-4H is the specific exception to that rule if you play it that doesn't involve bidding their suit. I would take 1S-4H as natural with no agreement. I would say that makes it one of the most hard and fast rules in bridge!

 

By the way, 1S p 4H and 2S p 4H are in no way analagous.

I agree, but I also think that 1s-4h splinter is very standard.

[Fluffy]

in this zone 1♠-4♥ is specifically an exception to splinter for most (so it is natural)

 

 

jilly your partner should bid 3♥ not 4 to involve you a little, it is true that expecting 2 aces from your hand is maybe too much, but it costs nothing to go slower. If he/she takes 4♣later as a cuebid (it is a cue!) its another story.

[Cascade]

By the way, 1S p 4H and 2S p 4H are in no way analagous.

Probably a bad choice of words by me.

 

It maybe it maybe not.

 

Common rules for splinters are:

 

Double jumps over one-level openings;

 

Any jump one level above a natural forcing bid.

 

If you happen to play strong jump shifts then you only need the second rule.

 

If you have agreements like that then the two auctions are analogous.

 

If you have different conflicting agreements for the two auctions then they are not analogous.

[kenberg]

The sequence thatl I want to discuss with partner is 2♠-3♥-4♣. It certainly makes sense for this to be a cue in support of hearts, as recommended. With that agreement the lack of such a cue would be useful as well. After 2♠-3♥-4♥ I think I, as the heart holder, would look at my three off the top losers and pass in an instant. Mostly I would be right, whatever our agreements, because the 2♠ bidder will seldom have two aces. With the cue agreement, I will even more often be right in passing the raise to 4♥.

 

Btw: It is, imo, somewhat close between 1 and 2 spades as an opening bid. I do not consider passing. I think I go with 1♠. If partner has some spades, this hand has a LTC of 7 (or 7 and a half, I guess) which is about what he expects for an opening 1 bid. If he doesn't fit spades maybe we can get out in 2♠ just as if I had opened 2. Or maybe it will all go south. But I think 1♠ is my opening bid.

[JLOGIC]

The sequence thatl I want to discuss with partner is 2♠-3♥-4♣. It certainly makes sense for this to be a cue in support of hearts, as recommended. With that agreement the lack of such a cue would be useful as well. After 2♠-3♥-4♥ I think I, as the heart holder, would look at my three off the top losers and pass in an instant. Mostly I would be right, whatever our agreements, because the 2♠ bidder will seldom have two aces. With the cue agreement, I will even more often be right in passing the raise to 4♥.

Yeah def agree with all of this

[jillybean]

The sequence  thatl I want to discuss with partner is 2♠-3♥-4♣. It certainly makes sense for this to be a cue in support of hearts, as recommended. With that agreement the lack of such a cue would be useful as well. After   2♠-3♥-4♥ I think I, as the heart holder, would look at my three off the top losers and pass in an instant. Mostly I would be right, whatever our agreements, because the 2♠ bidder will seldom have two aces. With the cue agreement, I will even more often  be right in passing the raise to 4♥.

Yeah def agree with all of this

Ok, I like this.

 

If partner wants to investigate slam in the weak2 suit, he must start with 2N (ogust for us) and then subsequent bids are cue bids?

 

2♠:2N

3♠:4x cue?

[jillybean]

I seem to have shut down the discussion, was this a silly question ?

[bluecalm]

I have to test my partner on this 2♠ - 4♥ one but I am pretty sure he will take it as splinter. Imo splinter is useful as slam invite. There is definitely point in playing that, maybe 4♥ is more useful as natural. I don't know but saying:

 

There is not really much of a point in playing splinters opposite a weak 2. Partner probably doesn't have any wasted values to evaluate.

 

 

is LOL imo. You gain a lot, one thing is that if you have slam invite without shortness and go through 2NT (w/e that is) to set spades and then cue partner knows you don't have SI with shortness but A or K which makes it easier to evaluate his hand.

Also it's nonsense to say that partner probably doesn't have wasted values. So what ? He sometimes have wasted values and sometimes he is 6-4 (huge opposite splinter). Sometimes he has only 2 cards opposite splinter (bad). He will be able to evaluate those hands properly.

 

2♠:2N

3♠:4x cue?

 

Yes I think so but as I said I like to be able to do that and splinter round before too.

 

2♠-3♥-4♣

 

Cue. What else ?

 

in this zone 1♠-4♥ is specifically an exception to splinter for most (so it is natural)

 

I am not sure if that's exception for most ? Someone knowing more about "standards" than me could comment on that ?

 

I seem to have shut down the discussion, was this a silly question ?

 

Maybe everybody just went to sleep. There are times of the day where forum is less active :P

[jillybean]

Yes, and I've been known to be impatient. :P