Rebid after 1NT forcing

[fingolfin3]

[hv=s=sxhjxxxxdaxxxcqxx]133|100|Scoring: MP

Bidding goes:

1♠-(P)-1NT!-(P)

2♣-(P)-?[/hv]

 

Now what?

 

This is the kind of hand that makes me want to switch to 1NT semi-forcing...

[kenrexford]

2♦ as Bart for me.

[jillybean]

2♥ for me

[pooltuna]

pass you are not down yet but your chances of going down will increase if you keep bidding

[bluecalm]

What do you do with 5-3-3-2 ? Rebid better minor or always 2♣ ?

Anyway I think it's close between passing and 2♥. I need to think about it before answering.

Problem with passing is that you may be in 3-3 fit. Problem with 2♥ is that you may end up in 5-1 fit (partner is supposed to pass with 5-1-(4-3). I don't know what is more likely and I don't know how worse is playing in 3-3 club fit.

[fingolfin3]

What do you do with 5-3-3-2 ? Rebid better minor or always 2♣ ?

Anyway I think it's close between passing and 2♥. I need to think about it before answering.

We play that you rebid 2♣ with 5-3-3-2 (and 3 clubs). Which, obviously, increases the likelihood that it's a 3-card suit.

[wank]

he was asking what you rebid with 5332 and a doubleton club

[bluecalm]

he was asking what you rebid with 5332 and a doubleton club

 

Yes. Maybe it doesn't matter though and one should bid 2♥ anyway ? What do you think ?

[Gerben42]

  2♦ as Bart for me.

 

Good for you. Perhaps not the right thread for this.

I think it's not close between Pass and 2♥. Take your medicine and pass.

[fingolfin3]

he was asking what you rebid with 5332 and a doubleton club

Oh sorry, wasn't aware that bidding a doubleton club was an option in 1NT forcing systems. No, we would bid 2♦, the longer minor, with exactly 5-3-3-2.

 

Looks like opinions are split between 2♥ and passing 2♣. I probably would have bid 2♥ if the suit was better (Axxxx or something). But now that I think of it, 2♥ might be the best option anyway. Opener can easily have 3 hearts (5-3-2-3, 5-3-1-4), and even a 5-2 fit in a major is probably better at matchpoints. It's only a problem if opener has only one heart, like 5-1-3-4 or 5-1-2-5 (oops).

 

At the table, I passed 2♣. Partner was 5-2-3-3 and managed to make it for +90 and a middling score.

[hanp]

2H playing donnbart.

[Siegmund]

Without special agreements I pass.

 

If we're playing 2C=2+, 2D=4+, that will make me much more nervous, but I still pass.

 

When the hearts get to be as good as QJT8x, I will consider lying with another bid.

[wank]

Yes. Maybe it doesn't matter though and one should bid 2♥ anyway ? What do you think ?

i'd put dummy down pronto.

 

a 3-3 fit when we've got a singleton spade is unlikely to be a disaster and it will be difficult for the opps to defend.

 

if we rebiddintg 2c on 5332 i'd still pass. if partner's got that shape that's life

[the hog]

Looks like an obvious pass of 2C. Bidding 2H on this pathetic H suit is a joke.

[jdonn]

Definitely pass unless playing what han said.

[jjbrr]

Pass and pray.

[bluecalm]

You guys are passing because you think 2♣ is better contract on average than 2♥ or because you are afraid bidding won't end the auction ?

 

After thinking about it a bit more and generating some hands I tend to believe 2♥ is better bid at matchpoints (because often both partscores make). At imps it should be very close.

My opinion is not strong though.

[the hog]

Why am I passing? Because partner has shown AT LEAST 8 cards in 2 suits and may well have more. Bidding 2H on 5 to the J is absurd in this scenario. Partner should expect a decent suit, or at least a long suit for this sequence.

[JLOGIC]

You guys are passing because you think 2♣ is better contract on average than 2♥ or because you are afraid bidding won't end the auction ?

 

After thinking about it a bit more and generating some hands I tend to believe 2♥ is better bid at matchpoints (because often both partscores make). At imps it should be very close.

My opinion is not strong though.

Both partscores making, you are very optimistic :P

 

I have no idea really, I don't have very much experience with forcing NT anymore, playing semi-forcing NT it is an easy pass. Seems like a good hand for your favorite thing...a sim! Hands like this show why I think forcing NT sucks :)

[pooltuna]

You guys are passing because you think 2♣ is better contract on average than 2♥ or because you are afraid bidding won't end the auction ?

 

After thinking about it a bit more and generating some hands I tend to believe 2♥ is better bid at matchpoints (because often both partscores make). At imps it should be very close.

My opinion is not strong though.

Both partscores making, you are very optimistic :P

 

I have no idea really, I don't have very much experience with forcing NT anymore, playing semi-forcing NT it is an easy pass. Seems like a good hand for your favorite thing...a sim! Hands like this show why I think forcing NT sucks :)

so from the previous we can infer that IYO semi forcing 1NT semi-hoovers? :)

[bluecalm]

Hands like this show why I think forcing NT sucks

 

You must admit though you can end up in silly spot playing non forcing 1NT even easier. For example you could be going down 3 vulnerable with your 9 or 10 card heart fit chilling on the side... at least if you play forcing NT and responder has 6+card suit you will play there usually (especially if you bid 2♣ on all 5-3-3-2's).

 

I did some simuls and I am still no sure about correct rebid. I am too lazy now to make it on bigger sample with better assumptions (excluding 15-17 5-3-3-2 etc). I think it's very close anyway.

[the hog]

Having played both forcing and nf 1NT responses, I do believe that in 2/1 a fnt is far superior. It allows you to slot in 3 card support with invit hands, and it often does give you a better chance of finding a better contract.

[bluecalm]

It's quite amazing I agree with Hog 2nd time today...

Strange things happening...

[MickyB]

On this hand, I would definitely pass 2♣. Besides anything else, bidding on this hand puts more pressure on the 2♥ rebid, now partner will find it difficult to know when to pull 2♥ and when to raise with interest in game.

 

I much prefer to play a semi-forcing NT. If I have a flat 12-count and bid again, partner's most likely actions are to give preference back to a 5-2 fit, raise my minor and rebid 2NT on his flat 11. None of these make me particularly happy. Of course, a lot of this depends on your other responses to 1M - I quite like to bid 2m then 3m as natural and invitational, and to have 1M:3D as a three-card limit raise, which ties in well.

[JLOGIC]

It's quite amazing I agree with Hog 2nd time today...

Strange things happening...

You know your heroes Meckwell don't play forcing NT!

 

BTW I don't understand the above 2 3 card limit raise comments. I don't play forcing NT and give my 3 card limit raises in 1N. I'm usually happier to play 1N than I am 3M. I guess it's different at MP, but for 3M to be right over 1N in imps, 3M must play 3 tricks better! And that's when I'm balanced! I find it much mroe common that 3M is down and 1N makes on a 3 card LR hand type where I would have passed.

 

As far as missign our 6-3 or 7-3 fit and playing 1N, well, that is unlikely because the opponents would probably have bid. When it goes 1M p 1N p p p and I have a 6 or 7 card suit, my hand is probably not that good. That means they have more than half the deck and they have some fit somewhere (maybe 2 fits or a big fit), they would have bid. If they forgot to bid, they probably would have bid over our 6-3 fit.

 

And even if worst comes to worst and we play 1N instead of our 6-3 fit with half the deck or so, it might make! It's 1 freaking NT!

 

Much more common is that when we were going to be allowed to play 1N, both of our hands are balanced and we have NO fit. In those cases 1N is much better than 2 of something in a non fit, and those cases are so much more frequent.

 

Another much more common thing is that responder has no idea what to do when his partner could have a 3 card minor and a balanced minimum. I mean some hands are just impossible to bid, and often you get to the wrong/stupid partial because of this. Even playing bart does not solve this.

 

The other frequent thing is even though I'm minimum, partner was going to invite game. Maybe if I bid a 3 card minor he was going to raise it! :ph34r: I don't like playing 2N when I have a balanced minimum and I often go down when 1N would have made!