ATB

[bd71]

[hv=d=e&v=e&w=skq953hkq973djcq8&e=sa6htdakq95cak976]266|100|Scoring: MP

ACBL club game, mostly intermediate field with a smattering of advanced players

 

-- 1♦

1♠ 3♣

3N 5♣

P

 

Making 5 when clubs break 4-2, tied with 1-2 others for bottom board. Most of field scoring better in 3N, with a handful bidding/making 6N.[/hv]

[aguahombre]

As much as I dislike the 5C call, IMO West gets the blame. He has a mountain opposite a jump shift, with a couple of really nice minor suit cards.

 

No reason not to bid 3H/3C. It might find a 5/3 spade fit.

 

1D-1S

3C-3H

3N----then whatever gets to 6N; West can bid 4C minorwood, if avail then 6NT, or whatever is agreed. Even a conservative 4N/3N by West (responder) would work on this hand, after those five bids.

[Bbradley62]

I agree with Agua that West gets the blame for not bidding 3H. But, if 3H is artificial and forcing (could be KQxxx, Qxx, Jx, Qxx) then East can't bid 3NT over it.

[keylime]

3♥, clearcut. The 3♣ rebid is practically forcing to game for many (with me, only 3 ♦ rebid now is not GF). West 100%.

[aguahombre]

True, if 3H is artificial. After a GF 3C, the only "mark time" bid responder has is 3D, which allows the jumpshifter to complete her description ---the way we play it. 3H is a natural bid.

 

Our reasoning is: when one player has created a GF, the other needs to help with search for strain, rather than create more artificiality.

 

Oops, that was a reply to Bbrad. Keylime posted a nice one, in-between --but I still think 3C should be absolutely GF.

Edited August 26, 2010 by aguahombre

[keylime]

Another reason for 3NT -

 

Let's say, West is on a 5422 hand, and as East, you're holding these major suit holdings:

 

Jx Qx (and derivatives thereof)

 

Now, there's even more reason to avoid 5m and get into your slow playing 3NT where you may need to run the opening lead around into these holdings.

[rogerclee]

Ummm, I can't believe west is getting blame at all. He said he wanted to play 3N! Bidding 3N implies you have no interest in a contract other than 3N! He had no interest in a contract other than 3N! Maybe it's not right, but it's what he said, and it worked fine on this hand in terms of not playing 5C.

 

If east pulls, it should be to 4C. This gives west the chance to bid 4N, which is to play! Or he could bid more. But anyway, west doesn't get any blame for 5C, when his partner described his hand as very shapely but not very strong with the minors (by not going through 4C).

[Bbradley62]

Another reason for 3NT -

 

Let's say, West is on a 5422 hand, and as East, you're holding these major suit holdings:

 

Jx Qx (and derivatives thereof)

My comment was that East can't bid 3NT on this hand due to his actual holding, if 3H is artificial. Under other circumstances, 3N could certainly be right.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=e&v=e&w=skq953hkq973djcq8&e=sa6htdakq95cak976]266|100|Scoring: MP

ACBL club game, mostly intermediate field with a smattering of advanced players

 

-- 1♦

1♠ 3♣

3N 5♣

P

 

Making 5 when clubs break 4-2, tied with 1-2 others for bottom board. Most of field scoring better in 3N, with a handful bidding/making 6N.[/hv]

Is 4♣ really not forcing after 3NT in this auction? I would expect it to show more controls than 5♣ which should be more about distribution than controls IMO.

[ONEferBRID]

[hv=d=e&v=e&w=skq953hkq973djcq8&e=sa6htdakq95cak976]266|100|Scoring: MP

ACBL club game, mostly intermediate field with a smattering of advanced players

 

-- 1♦

1♠ 3♣

3N 5♣

P

 

Making 5 when clubs break 4-2, tied with 1-2 others for bottom board.  Most of field scoring better in 3N, with a handful bidding/making 6N.[/hv]

Responder should get the Hts in with a later message that he is at least 5-5 in the Majors.

Opener may not be 5-5 in the minors and could easily have a 5-4 with 3 cards in one of the Majors. Getting to slam is harder.... and probably just a guess.

[Bbradley62]

Getting to slam is harder.... and probably just a guess.

With 13HCP opposite 20HCP, it shouldn't be all that hard.

 

East should be afraid that West holds Qxxxx, KJx, xx, xxx after his 3NT bid. What is West worried about that keeps him from getting the pair to slam?

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=e&v=e&w=skq953hkq973djcq8&e=sa6htdakq95cak976]266|100|Scoring: MP

ACBL club game, mostly intermediate field with a smattering of advanced players

 

-- 1♦

1♠ 3♣

3N 5♣

P

 

Making 5 when clubs break 4-2, tied with 1-2 others for bottom board. Most of field scoring better in 3N, with a handful bidding/making 6N.[/hv]

Responder should bid 4NT over 3C as an invitation.

[ONEferBRID]

What is West worried about that keeps him from getting the pair to slam?

That Opener is not 20 but just 18-19 for his jump-shift.... not to mention the misfit.

[nigel_k]

East has a powerful hand and would like to open 2♣, but you would want some artificial methods after that or you cannot show both suits below 3NT. Just playing standard I agree with 1♦.

 

I don't mind West's 3NT as the hands don't appear to fit well and I think most of us would play 3♥ as FSF, not natural. Certainly I would do no more than invite slam with West and even that is aggressive. If West cannot bid a quantitative 4NT over 3♣ then maybe 3♥ instead and hope partner bids 3NT so you can raise it.

 

East's 5♣ is clearly wrong. It's between 4♣ and pass.

 

After 5♣, West would like to bid 5NT to try to salvage some matchpoints but there is no guarantee you'll be allowed to play there. Raising to 6♣ is too much as you have nothing much in the minors and expect all those major cards to be wastage.

 

Overall, West didn't do much wrong and shouldn't get more than 10% of the blame. East gets the rest but it's quite hard to reach 6NT.

[bluecalm]

I agree with basically everything nigel_k wrote.

 

I don't mind West's 3NT as the hands don't appear to fit well and I think most of us would play 3♥ as FSF

 

What do you think of 4NT by W though ?

If it's quantitative as I think it should be it seems it fits the hand well.

[mikeh]

I agree with Agua that West gets the blame for not bidding 3H. But, if 3H is artificial and forcing (could be KQxxx, Qxx, Jx, Qxx) then East can't bid 3NT over it.

I don't know anyone who plays 3♥ as artificial and see almost zero need for it. The hand you provided....KQxxx Qxx Jx Qxx... is an easy....truly trivial....3♦ call...and, for keylime....3♣ was gf...that means that there are NO none gf bids left to either player.

 

I think West should bid 3♥. While his side won't usually be playing in hearts....pulling the likely 3N to 4♥ makes no sense to me....it preserves the chance of opener showing spades...haven't we all jumpshifted to 3♣ with 3 good spades?

 

Once West chose 3N, which would be my distant second choice, East's 5♣ is bizarre...it's how one might bid with a 6-6 minor hand, not 5-5.

 

Personally, I think the plausible auction to slam goes via 3♥ then over 3N, a raise to 4N.....the minor cards are just good enough, for me, to make the risk worth taking, and East would be delighted....I think he should bid 5N, accepting the invite and suggesting a choice of slams...West could then bid 6♥ but it seems to me that 6N is better....it's tough to construct a hand with a 5-3 heart fit that plays better in 6♥ from our side than 6N from partner's side.

[hanp]

Eazst 100% blame, that means west gets no blame. 3NT doesn't mean "I have a balanced hand", it means "I hear you have the minors, let's play 3NT".

 

By the way, there is a hand in the "deal of the weak" archives where Fred bids 3NT with a somewhat similar (though perhaps weaker) hand.

[jdonn]

Eazst 100% blame, that means west gets no blame. 3NT doesn't mean "I have a balanced hand", it means "I hear you have the minors, let's play 3NT".

 

By the way, there is a hand in the "deal of the weak" archives where Fred bids 3NT with a somewhat similar (though perhaps weaker) hand.

I specifically remember him bidding 3♥ on that hand. One of us has lost our marbles.

 

On this deal I give both blame, west is worth 4NT over 3♣ (natural) assuming he doesn't want to bid 3♥, and east misdescribed by bidding 5♣ instead of 4♣.

[rogerclee]

Eazst 100% blame, that means west gets no blame. 3NT doesn't mean "I have a balanced hand", it means "I hear you have the minors, let's play 3NT".

 

By the way, there is a hand in the "deal of the weak" archives where Fred bids 3NT with a somewhat similar (though perhaps weaker) hand.

I specifically remember him bidding 3♥ on that hand. One of us has lost our marbles.

 

On this deal I give both blame, west is worth 4NT over 3♣ (natural) assuming he doesn't want to bid 3♥, and east misdescribed by bidding 5♣ instead of 4♣.

I think he was playing with Woolsey and thought that 3H was a good bid but didn't want to try it undiscussed so bid 3N. So maybe both of you are right.

[whereagles]

3NT is fine. The misfit warns against being too ambitious. But then I prefer a natural 4NT instead of 5♣. I think 5♣ shows like a weaker 6-5. Full auction might be

 

---- 1♣

1♠ 3♣

3NT 4NT

6♥ 6NT

[gnasher]

If West bids a natural 3♥, should East bid 3NT? It looks like a 3♠ bid to me.

 

Having said that, I'm not very familar with the idea of a natural bid in the fourth suit, so I don't really know what West has promised in the majors.

[Bbradley62]

I don't know anyone who plays 3♥ as artificial and see almost zero need for it.

I think most of us would play 3♥ as FSF, not natural.

 

Funny... Either way, I think 3♥ is right; if the partnership plays it as natural, it's a good description of West's hand, and if the partnership plays it as artificial, it's also a good description of West's hand.

[gnasher]

I don't know anyone who plays 3♥ as artificial and see almost zero need for it. The hand you provided....KQxxx Qxx Jx Qxx... is an easy....truly trivial....3♦ call

If 3♥ is natural, presumably you have to bid 3♦ on all 5323 shapes that aren't suitable for 3NT. If you played FSF, you wouldn't be able to show hearts, but you could show real diamond support at the three-level.

 

Why is it more useful to be able to show heart length than diamond support?

[bluecalm]

3♥ as 4th suit makes a lot of sense. You may want to bid that with single/half stopper to offer choice of games. For example holding Axx in hearts you want partner to bid 3nt on his Hx but you want to be in 5m opposite 2-1-5-5.

I don't like fancy agreements in specific sequencies. 4th suit as rebid by responder doesn't show natural length according to my meta agreements.

I am not sure about standard especially because bidding culture seems to be different in NA than in Poland/Europe.

I would expect expert+ partner not from America to understand 3♥ as FSF.

 

I can understand people who want 3♥ to be natural if they play systems when 3♣ may be bid on 4card suit (1-3-5-4 for example). I think such systems are inferior and I don't much care about solving problems they created in the first place but yeah playing such way I would reconsider.

[mikeh]

 

I can understand people who want 3♥ to be natural if they play systems when 3♣ may be bid on 4card suit (1-3-5-4 for example). I think such systems are inferior and I don't much care about solving problems they created in the first place but yeah playing such way I would reconsider.

Heck...I think in NA it is routine to rebid 3♣ on a 3 card suit!

 

Unless one plays 2N as artificial and forcing, what is one to bid over 1♠ with AJx x AKJxxx AQx?

 

I am serious....if any of the experts here have another rebid that they think is 'standard' on such hands, I'd be delighted to hear from them.

 

BTW, I do understand that one can accommodate these issues in a number of non-standard ways...an easy one is to employ the Mexican 2♦ opening bid, thus removing balanced 18-19 hands from the 1minor opening, and freeing up 2N as artificial. But at least in NA that is a treatment used by a small minority of players.

 

I understand why there are benefits to 3♥ FSF...more accurately....a 'punt' or a 'stall'...the main reason being that 3♦ becomes real support. But, and I may well be thoroughly out of date, I don't think it is the meaning that a NA expert would assume, absent discussion, when playing a pick-up game with another NA expert.