Lebensohl Over Weak Twos

[gurgistan]

I am thinking of giving up using Lebensohl over opponents' weak twos.

 

I have two reasons for this:

 

1. Aggressive opponents mean that partner may not get to respond to the Lebensohl double as his RHO has intervened.

 

2. There is a lot to remember which may or may not add to the existing methods.

 

I intend to go back to playing the existing methods: making whatever bid I think is appropriate over the Weak Two; eg 2any with a 5 card suit and 12hcp+.

 

Does anyone else feel the same way about Lebensohl over weak twos?

[bluecalm]

I am confused.

Lebensohl is used by responder in sequence like:

 

2X - dbl - pass - 2NT = lebensohl

 

It seems that you are talking about something different though.

[RMB1]

Can you explain what you mean by a "Lebensohl double"?

Is it a take-out double with Lebensohl available as a response?

 

There is not so much to remember if you just play (2M)-X-(P)-2NT is only weak.

[manudude03]

Lebensohl over weak 2s only applies after (2x)-X-(P), if the opponents bid over the X, then obviously it doesn't apply. If you mean after 2x-X-P-2N, then that's not aggressive, its just stupid (90%+ of the time). It definately improve on natural methods. Just take a hand like xx AQJx KJxx AJx, opps open 2S, you double and partner responds 3H, do you bid game or not?

 

In fact I can't think of a single hand where I've been glad I don't play lebensohl or wished I didn't play it.

[blackshoe]

I can think of several hands where I wish I did play Lebensohl. My partners are generally of the opinion that if they don't already know it, it's too much trouble to learn. :-(

[jkdood]

Lebensohl over weak 2s only applies after (2x)-X-(P)...

I like to play it also over 1x-p-2x-X-p-2N...

FWIW

and with some partners, even after

1x-X-2x-2N

 

It has a lot of merit in these auctions.

[pirate22]

over weak 2's try this---presuming opps ply weak 2's d/h/s.... if only h/s .one treats 2d{weak}as a 1d call and usual x now is for take out.if opp opens 2h {weak} you have other min 4 card major-you bid your best minor,guareenteeing 4 cards in othermajor-and leaave it up to pard-if you have more cards in major,bid the major-no tol for either minors.

same criteria if opp opens 2 sp.

if the 2d now is not weak {Sys bid}act accordingly.

N/t bids over opps weak 2's now show flat hand,and willing to compete.

pity the writer did not give an example problem hand

[aguahombre]

Lebensohl over weak 2s only applies after (2x)-X-(P)...

I like to play it also over 1x-p-2x-X-p-2N...

FWIW

and with some partners, even after

1x-X-2x-2N

 

It has a lot of merit in these auctions.

Leben and "good/bad" are close relatives.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 Maybe, but not all opponents are agressive, and even if this is just a matter

of level, sometimes the weak two does not get raised.

 

#2 Sure, but this is basically a matter, how to learn conventions / agreements,

and if you start to group certain things together, saying you will treat them

similar, than the memory load will be reasonable.

 

And finnally: Depending on the amount you are playing, you wont feel a big effect,

if you stop playing Lebensohl after they opened a weak two, it does not come up

that often, so if you think that you have overloaded your partnership with too many

agreements, than it makes sense to throw certain things out.

 

But I am not sure, that Lebensohl would be first candidate.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

I am confused.

Lebensohl is used by responder in sequence like:

 

2X - dbl - pass - 2NT = lebensohl

 

It seems that you are talking about something different though.

Someone is confused but it's not you.

[gurgistan]

The consensus seems to be in favour of keeping it. So I will.

 

I may well be missing something in my understanding of it.

 

Time to go and reread my notes on it.

[gwnn]

gurgistan, there is nothing called "lebensohl doubles"

[mgoetze]

I may well be missing something in my understanding of it.

 

Time to go and reread my notes on it.

Or maybe your notes are faulty.

[barmar]

It's true that sometimes third hand interferes after the double, and then your ability to use Lebensohl is curtailed. But why give up such a useful convention just because occasionally you can't use it?

 

I admit that I have a similar feeling about Drury, though -- when partner opens light, there will usually be an overcall. However, I also don't open trash, so I have less of a need for it.

[MFA]

Lebensohl over weak 2s only applies after (2x)-X-(P)...

I like to play it also over 1x-p-2x-X-p-2N...

FWIW

and with some partners, even after

1x-X-2x-2N

 

It has a lot of merit in these auctions.

Leben and "good/bad" are close relatives.

They are. But good/bad has a very serious flaw in that 2NT doesn't show the suit immediately, and therefore it is very vulnerable to further competition. For that reason I don't like good/bad in general.

 

Lebensohl also has this problem in those sequences where next hand can potentially be expected to bid sometimes. Notably after sequences like 1S-X-2S-2NT. I play Lebensohl here too, but I don't really like it. When opener bids on in spades we are potentially in trouble when we may need to compete. I compensate be stretching to show a good3 instead of going via 2N. ;)

[aguahombre]

In almost all cases, neither Leben, nor G/B shows the intended suit immediately; this is not a flaw in the conventions; it is the peril created by the competition.

 

What both Leben and G/B attempt to do is distinguish between merely competitive bids and strength-showing bids. Competition does screw up our auctions, but throwing out tools which do not perfectly fix all situations --- in favor of no strength agreements in competitive auctions seems like tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

[Stephen Tu]

I intend to go back to playing the existing methods: making whatever bid I think is appropriate over the Weak Two; eg 2any with a 5 card suit and 12hcp+.

 

OP seems confused and believes that playing Lebensohl over weak 2s means you change what set of hands make a takeout double vs. overcall etc.

 

This is not the case -- Lebensohl affects how you *respond* to a takeout double, not whether you *should* make a take out double.

[MFA]

In almost all cases, neither Leben, nor G/B shows the intended suit immediately; this is not a flaw in the conventions; it is the peril created by the competition. 

 

What both Leben and G/B attempt to do is distinguish between merely competitive bids and strength-showing bids.  Competition does screw up our auctions, but throwing out tools which do not perfectly fix all situations --- in favor of no strength agreements in competitive auctions seems like tossing the baby out with the bathwater.

Good/bad or lebensohl IS creating a whole new problem in the process of trying to solve the strength issue.

 

Without those conventions we would be knowing the suit immediately instead of a nondescriptive 2N. It is the conventions that create this problem not the competition itself.

 

So we have to make a choice, and my choice is that good/bad is not worth it. In competition, getting suits in is so huge in comparison to being precise on strength. Often when we bid, we don't know who can make what, just that there will be a lot of tricks.

 

So in principle lebensohl has the exact same flaw as good/bad. But lebensohl is used in sequences where the threat of further competition tends to be smaller:

 

A) 2♥ - X - P - 2NT(leb)

We tend to be able to continue our sequence peacefully.

 

B) 1NT - 2♠ - 2NT(leb)

Already worse, but facing a 1NT-opening responder usually can take care of himself.

 

Contrast with:

 

C) 1♦ - 1♠ - D - 2♠, 2N(good-bad, any bad 3X bid)

If the overcaller bids 3♠ or 4♠ now we can just say: Ugh! Responder probably has fit for something, but what suit(s) does opener have?

[jkdood]

There must be a flaw, since I have never heard of it, but what about REVERSE LEBENSOL?

(Of course there is Reverse Capp and Reverse Jordan already.)

 

Bid directly (to 3 level) with the weaker competitive hands, and start with 2N with game invitational or better values.

 

In general, with more values, you don't mind the opps competing further, as you are better placed to punish them.

 

There might also be another benefit from the reverse approach. I know it gets awkward when 2N is a puppet to 3C which might get passed, so the doubler, with any considerable extras, has to bid something else. But what? a cue? A new but 4card suit?

 

If 2NT always showed invit+, a new suit, other than 3C, could be 100% forcing, (after 2N) and may help reach the best strain and level sensibly?

 

Hmmn.

[aguahombre]

Don't forget "Reverse Treadwell", per Zeke in a recent ACBL Bulletin.

 

And, of course, "Reverse Smolen" (i.e. Standard). I have been working on reverse Inverted Minors.

[jkdood]

Reverse Drury also sounds catchy (might catch on?)

[onoway]

no wonder newbies give up on playing bridge, saying it's just too complicated to bother with

[hanp]

There must be a flaw, since I have never heard of it, but what about REVERSE LEBENSOL?

(Of course there is Reverse Capp and Reverse Jordan already.)

 

Bid directly (to 3 level) with the weaker competitive hands, and start with 2N with game invitational or better values.

This is common here.

[aguahombre]

Bid directly (to 3 level) with the weaker competitive hands, and start with 2N with game invitational or better values.

 

In general, with more values, you don't mind the opps competing further, as you are better placed to punish them.

 

I don't think we are much better placed to punish them when we haven't shown what suit we are coming in...even though we have established extra values. Any further action by the opponents has negatively affected our strain search.

 

In the weaker case, we probably didn't want to be above the level to which they are competing anyway; we still might lose a little in knowing how to defend, but the player opposite the G/B or Leben bidder probably has a clue what partner was going to show, anyway.

 

How many times have we sucessfully stopped on a dime profitably at the four-level in a minor over 3 of their major because we had REVERSE Leben as a tool? Compare it to the number of times we couldn't get our suit bid at a convenient level and got to the wrong game or missed game entirely with extra strength using 2NT as the stronger bid.

 

If the frequency of occurrence is close, what about the IMP odds?

[awm]

The problem with reverse lebensohl over weak two bids is the club bid with values. If this goes through 2NT, then partner has to bid past 3♣ any time he wants to be in game opposite a club bid with values, but this creates some issues sorting out exactly what advancer has.

 

I've played reverse lebensohl over 1NT-(bid) and it works okay there, basically because the "good" hands are forcing so with clubs you can bid 2N...cue.