more atb

[jillybean]

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sj54hkqjt73d972ct&s=s97h62daqjckj7532]133|200|Scoring: IMP

P (1♠) 2♥ (2♠)

P (3♠) P (P)

4♣ (X) AP [/hv]

[jjbrr]

South was completely nuts

[olliebol]

South could have bid 3 clubs a round earlier. North has a weak two disguised as a 2 level overcall.

[gwnn]

North should not bid with that hand but South was really nuts.

[vuroth]

South 100 North 50?

 

My first question for them would be - did either of you look at the vulnerability at any point before you recorded the score?

[helene_t]

Maybe 4♣ shows some heart tolerance, so North could have taken it back to hearts. Anyway, 4♣ is not a good bid, 3♣ the round before (or opening 1♣) would have been better.

[jillybean]

Does 4♣ show ♥ tolerance here?

[bluecalm]

S:

Passing this hand is terrible. Decent 6card suit, hand more valuable than many 12's.

Bidding 4♣ is completely nuts.

 

N:

2♥ is crazy.

 

Overall I would say 100% of blame goes to south. N's actions while hazardous didn't cause disaster on this board.

S just did commit suicide imo.

[aguahombre]

North should not bid with that hand but South was really nuts.

That covers it.

 

My guess is:

 

South just took delivery of his bid box when the auction was already at 3S, and thought he should try to catch up.

 

North didn't see the "1S", and opened a weak 2.

 

At least they could try those excuses in the pub, later.

[pooltuna]

South needs to learn that when the hand holder where his cards came from is painted red that means DANGER! If he is playing on BBO then in the upper left hand corner of his screen when the top and bottom polygons are colored red that means DANGER! North was penalized for making a slightly risky 2♥ overcall and which in this partnership south took to mean "♣s" :)

[fingolfin3]

East has to get some of the blame for not raising to 4♠. Because then South would have undoubtedly bid 5♣, giving E-W an additional 300!

[TylerE]

North is is nuts. As South I would have bid the round before if I didn't open (which I probably would). 2♥ is just hopeless and IMO deserves 100% of the blame.

[ArtK78]

Can we give both partners 100% of the blame?

 

South didn't open a perfectly fine hand with a good (not great) 6 card suit.

 

North, facing a passed partner, overcalled at the 2 level vulnerable on a hand which is a marginal weak 2 bid. He overstated his values by at least an Ace, if not more (certainly the maximum values for a vul 2 level overcall is over 2 aces more).

 

South, facing a partner who made a vul 2 level overcall opposite a passed partner and holding an opening bid (OK, so he didn't think it was an opening bid - then a near opening bid) again does not bid. Clearly, his hand is worth a 3♣ bid.

 

When 3♠ comes back to him, South now realizes that he may have the best hand at the table and decides to come back into the auction. This might have worked. However, from what we see of the North hand and the title to this thread, the 4♣ bid resulted in a disaster.

 

North made a very poor 2♥ overcall. But South did a lot more to contribute to this farce of a result. Can we give 100% to North and 300% to South?

[hrothgar]

Couple comments

 

1. I don't think that 4♣ can be natural... Given the previous (lack of) bidding, you can't have hand that wants to play 4♣.

 

Its a matter of agreement whether you prefer to treat 4♣ as a fit nonjump OR a lead directing correction to 4♥. Given the initial pass over 2♠, neither treatment really makes much sense. However, I prefer either to "4♣ shows clubs"...

 

2. The 2♥ bid strikes me as a severe overbid...

[dcohio]

Typically it takes 2 bad bids to reach a disaster... Both N and S were nutso on this one.

[hanp]

South could have opened this hand and probably realized that. When the bidding came to the 4-level, they decided it was now the time to bid... not a good idea.

[neilkaz]

South could have opened this hand and probably realized that. When the bidding came to the 4-level, they decided it was now the time to bid... not a good idea.

I see the symptoms of this disease too often. Anyhow..both N and S bid this hand very badly, but S is more to blame.

 

1) S made a rather weak call, his initial pass. Then S made a very weak call since he has an easy 3♣ bid after partner overcalls. South's final call is basically a death wish. Souith should realize that the opps have made a game try, and just defend.

 

2) North's overall is an ace light, or at least a likely useful king light. Did N not see the opening 1♠ bid? N's pass on rd 2 is the only good bid this partnership made during this auction. With N's hand and those 6 strong ♥ but only 1♣ I have to pull partner's silly 4♣ bid to 4♥ after the X.

 

Blame 65% South 35% North

[mikeh]

South was three times as much to blame as North....but both players were very, very bad.

 

1. S should open. I am generally a sound opener (certainly by comparison to most who post here) and I see it as a clear opener....no rebid problem of any kind, and 3 controls.

 

2. North has no business overcalling. 2♥ shows a near opener or better..the suit is good enough but the hand is crap. Just because S passed doesn't mean S is barred from acting intelligently, based on assuming that N has his values...thus when N makes an egregious overbid, he cannot escape all blame for any subsequent disaster.

 

3. S should bid 3♣ over 2♠...I mean...why not??? Partner isn't going to play S for more than this! Given that partner is virtually unlimited for the overcall, game is not out of sight, and we rate to have the majority of the hcp.

 

4. Having passed at two clear opportunities to bid, South was both suicidal and partnercidal in bidding 4♣ now. I can, barely, think of a hand for this action but it starts with something like QJ10xxxxxx in clubs :P

 

While this particular hand represents an extreme and idiotic variant of the theme...the theme for the third error is that if one has taken anti-field views early in the auction, one should generally stick with that position.....if you zig when you ought to zag, assume that on this hand zigging works out.....don't zig twice then, at a level where there is no margin for safety, decide....what the heck...time to zag.

[jillybean]

Ok, Im north and take 100% blame for the terrible 2♥ o/c

 

I'm at a Regional and here's one of the boards from tonight

 

2nd position (vl=none) you chose to open 1♠ on

98765,KQJ93,A,J5

 

This is the uncontested auction;

 

1♠:2♥ (playing std)

3♥:4♣

4♦:4♥

 

what now?

[mikeh]

5♥ asks for a spade control, and that is what I would bid. Placing partner with an Ace and a King in the minors (for his slam try with terrible trumps) and it seems to me that 6♥ depends on not losing 2 spades.

 

This action will get you to a borderline slam opposite Kx in spades (and a virtually hopeless one opposite Kxx...but he rates to have bid 3S with that holding), but otherwise should leave you well positioned.

 

This hand has grown up enormously.

[hanp]

I was also thinking about 5H, but I was reluctant to respond as I don't know the system. Did 3H show extras? Did 4C show a good hand? Did 4C deny spade length or a spade control?

 

I don't think of 5H as an asking bid in this auction btw, I think it is a slam try without a spade control.

[pooltuna]

I was also thinking about 5H, but I was reluctant to respond as I don't know the system. Did 3H show extras? Did 4C show a good hand? Did 4C deny spade length or a spade control?

 

I don't think of 5H as an asking bid in this auction btw, I think it is a slam try without a spade control.

and 4♠ would be a ♠ control asking about ♥ quality? :P

[hanp]

4NT asks about aces and heart quality.

[jillybean]

Han there is are no special agreements it's a p/u partner.

So I would say, 3♥ does not show extra's, 4♣ denies ♠ length but is silent

as to ♠ control.

[manudude03]

I would bid 5D, should say you have a very good hand for the bidding and lack a spade control.