Fairly ridiculous TD ruling on BBO...

[Little Kid]

So I just entered one of the Free BBO Tournaments we didn't even mange to bid the second hand :)

 

Hand 1:

Pass from me and LHO opens 1♦. Nobody vul partner preempts 4♥ on:

♠T9xxx

♥QJ9xxx

♦x

♣x

 

We end up getting a good board after we go down doubled for a few in 5♥ while they had a slam on. After two passes on the next hand the tournament director, xxxx, shows up and suddenly adjusts the hand we had just started bidding to Ave-. I have to ask about 4 times before I finally get a response saying that psyches are not allowed. I continued to ask politely what psyche she meant as we hadn't even bid the hand she adjusted. She says she will check again and then gives us another Ave-, this time for board 1. I was sure there must have been a misunderstanding so I enquire again about what has happened, at this point my partner doesn't want to continue until that hand has been cleared up.

 

As it turns out, we got the board adjusted because my partner psyched because he didn't have a lot of hcps for his 4♥ bid... I have no objections to directors disallowing psyches, but claiming this is one of them is just silly. I tried to reason with her, explaining that it was just a preemptive bid (albeit optimistic) but she remained adamant about it being a psyche and not allowed. We withdrew from the tournament at this stage. That concludes my BBO Free Tournaments thus far in 2010 :(

 

(Prior to posting this I asked the director if she minded I asked about this incident on the BBO forum and she replied she had no objection)

[blackshoe]

Free tourneys. Heh.

 

1. You get what you pay for.

2. If you're going to play in free tourneys, it seems to me the best attitude to have towards whatever happens in them is "I don't care". Just move on.

[jillybean]

I have found that people who ban psyches have a lot of fear and little knowledge about psyhces so that any unusual, unexpected bid is regarded as a psyche and an adjustment made.

I've had an adjustment made after 1S:2C where 2C is game forcing but short, 2C was alerted but still adjusted for breaking the "no psyche" rule.

 

Add to this players who know that after an 'unusual' bid that results in a + for the opps, they can call the TD and often get an A+- , this creates a no lose situation.

[peachy]

Anything can, and does, happen in a free tourney. If you enter one, don't bother to call the TD, the likelihood that he/she is able to apply the laws for a ruling is between zero and nearly none, with a few exceptions. Really nothing you can do about it and complaining will be just that - venting your frustration over something that nobody can change or remedy.

[aguahombre]

Free tourneys. Heh.

 

1. You get what you pay for.

2. If you're going to play in free tourneys, it seems to me the best attitude to have towards whatever happens in them is "I don't care". Just move on.

Yes, but I am glad that response is not their official one :)

 

About once a year we get a silly decision or uncalled-for remark by a director on OK, and we certainly agree that the price is right ---and the stakes are zero, so what the heck.

 

I would think that the people in charge of freeroll tourneys might be concerned with "quality", though. They probably don't want a total loss of esteem.

[Free]

You get what you pay for

[nigel_k]

So is this a gross and deliberate misdescription? It may not be, but it also is not ridiculous for a director to think it is. Certainly just saying it is preemptive and optimistic is not a counterargument - a psyche can be both of those.

[bluecalm]

Clearly TD doesn't know much about how bridge is played so to her eyes it was a psyche.

It's bbo, free tourney with random td. You can't expect good rulings under the circumstances...

[peachy]

So is this a gross and deliberate misdescription? It may not be, but it also is not ridiculous for a director to think it is. Certainly just saying it is preemptive and optimistic is not a counterargument - a psyche can be both of those.

A psyche is a "deliberate and gross mis-statement of suit length and/or hand strength". The example bid IMO was neither of these, so it was not a psych. He had hearts, and he had a preemptive hand, so the bid was a true and systemic description both as to the suit and as to the general strength. Even if it had been a slight deviation on the general strength department, it was still not a psych because the deviation needs to be gross to be counted as psych and IMO judging this to be gross is a misjudgment on the TD's part.

[MBV53]

no offence here,Result must stand.11 cards in majors who will not bid?if anybody applies cue bid for both majors then also ground is prepared for sacrifies. 2nd board software might have adjusted the board automatically because of Time constraint.

MBVSubrahmanyam.

India.

[Fluffy]

I haven't played this tournaments much, but I think these behaviour is made to discourage cheaters from joining the event and making psyches knowing partner's hand wich would ruin the fun to everyone.

 

If your 4♥ bid didn't hit any fit I bet you wouldn't get averaged. But as it is director though your pair was suspicious.

 

Please, understand that I in no way sugest that LittleKid did cheat on any way. Just explaining director's POV.

 

 

I make a lot more dubious bids but I wear a star so nobody argues ^_^

[McBruce]

"at this point my partner doesn't want to continue until that hand has been cleared up"

 

When I ran tournaments on BBO I did not expel people for psyching, but I did expel them for refusing to play while they argued a ruling. If you are trying to convince a TD that a ruling is wrong, you have a much better chance if you don't make life miserable for the rest of the room by holding up proceedings. You have no chance of having the ruling changed if you inconvenience other players with a refusal to continue. Any reasonable TD will happily discuss it later.

[hotShot]

The question if this is a psyche or not depends on your agreement.

 

If your agreement requires you to have 7+♥, no side suit and about 10 HCP, than the given hand is a gross deviation.

 

I assume that your partner alerted and disclosed your agreement about such an preempt. The software allows the TD to see the bidding at your table the same way you do. So the TD can see alerts and explanations given to the alert.

Unfortunately your post does not include your agreement.

 

If your partner did not alert his bid and disclosed that your agreed strength can be as low as 3 HCP and that your preempts can be2-suited, the TD will assume some sort of "standard" for such a bid. Compared to many "standards" I can think of, I would consider 4♥ to be a gross deviation. (Which would be irrelevant since I don't ban psyches...)

 

Adjusting the wrong board is a "finger fault" that should not happen, I hope the interface improved in that area.

[matmat]

"at this point my partner doesn't want to continue until that hand has been cleared up"

 

When I ran tournaments on BBO I did not expel people for psyching, but I did expel them for refusing to play while they argued a ruling. If you are trying to convince a TD that a ruling is wrong, you have a much better chance if you don't make life miserable for the rest of the room by holding up proceedings. You have no chance of having the ruling changed if you inconvenience other players with a refusal to continue. Any reasonable TD will happily discuss it later.

If the director is legitimately bad I do not see a problem with this. If their tournaments turn into a red-seat fest, maybe fewer people will register. First off, this is good since smaller tournaments might be easier to handle for people like this, secondly, it's a way for people to vote with their feet, so to speak.

 

There is no official way to weed out bad TDs -- maybe actions like this are necessary to convince them they should not be running games.

[Oof Arted]

;)

 

 

If the organisers of the Free Tourney decide that Psyches and HUMS are Banned in their Tourneys Then they are Banned

 

Read the Tourney rules BEFORE entering

 

If you then enter said Tourney then it is YOUR fault not the TD's

 

I am not saying this ruling is right or wrong

 

All I will say is dont enter said Tourney again

 

^_^

[RMB1]

If the organisers of the Free Tourney decide that Psyches and HUMS are Banned in their Tourneys Then they are Banned

 

Read the Tourney rules BEFORE entering

 

If you then enter said Tourney then it is YOUR fault not the TD's

This is not a psyche or HUM or Brown Sticker.

The tourney rules needed to say something like

"no opening 4M on a 7 card suit and/or <5 HCP"

before this is illegal.

[the hog]

;)

 

 

If the organisers  of the Free Tourney decide that Psyches and HUMS are Banned in their Tourneys Then they are Banned

 

Read the Tourney rules BEFORE entering

 

If you then enter said Tourney then it is YOUR fault not the TD's

 

I am not saying this ruling is right or wrong

 

All I will say is dont enter said Tourney again

 

:rolleyes:

Who is talking about a Hum or a Brown sticker convention? The incident here has NOTHING to do with these.

[bluecalm]

If your partner did not alert his bid and disclosed that your agreed strength can be as low as 3 HCP and that your preempts can be2-suited, the TD will assume some sort of "standard" for such a bid. Compared to many "standards" I can think of, I would consider 4♥ to be a gross deviation. (Which would be irrelevant since I don't ban psyches...)

 

Man, no decent+ bridge player has agreements about hcp when it comes to opening 4♥.

I don't think there are more than tiny % of decent bridge players who require 7 card suit either.

It seems that you just made some assumptions about what you would open 4♥ with and assumed those must be standard. TD probably did the same and that's why i wrote she doesn't understand how bridge is played.

 

When I ran tournaments on BBO I did not expel people for psyching, but I did expel them for refusing to play while they argued a ruling

 

I agree with that policy. Here though we have ridiculous case and it's understandable that player lost his nerves.

If you enter a tourney, made tough 3NT on first board and TD came to the table and say: "hahaha I will adjust it to average now cause I feel like it" would you leave the tourney ?

It's basically what happened here.

[hotShot]

If your partner did not alert his bid and disclosed that your agreed strength can be as low as 3 HCP and that your preempts can be2-suited, the TD will assume some sort of "standard" for such a bid. Compared to many "standards" I can think of, I would consider 4♥ to be a gross deviation. (Which would be irrelevant since I don't ban psyches...)

 

Man, no decent+ bridge player has agreements about hcp when it comes to opening 4♥.

I don't think there are more than tiny % of sane bridge players who require 7 card suit either.

It seems that you just made some assumptions about what you would open 4♥ with and assumed those must be standard. TD probably did the same and that's why i wrote she doesn't understand how bridge is played.

 

When I ran tournaments on BBO I did not expel people for psyching, but I did expel them for refusing to play while they argued a ruling

 

I agree with that policy. Here though we have ridiculous case and it's understandable that play lost his nerves.

If you enter a tourney, made tough 3NT on first board and TD came to the table and say: "hahaha I will adjust it to average now cause I feel like it" would you leave the tourney ?

It's basically what happened here.

4♥ was an overall not an opening.

 

I don't know what you and your friends consider to be "standard", but I hope you recognize that there are regional and systemic differences about what is considered "standard".

 

Around here an unalerted 2M opening has to be considered to be strong, although I haven't met anyone in the last 15 years who opens strong 2s .....

 

And the rules for alerting and the law about disclosure do apply to decent players too.

[bluecalm]

I don't know what you and your friends consider to be "standard", but I hope you recognize that there are regional and systemic differences about what is considered "standard".

 

They probably have the same agreement as 99% of the world which is "preemptive".

He also had preemptive hand. Maybe it's aggressive action, maybe not.

 

It's not matter of disclosure at all. It's matter of assuming that everybody must conform to your chosen style of play and if they don't they must be psyching.

 

It's like saying that opening 1NT on:

 

AKx

xx

xxx

AKQxx

 

Is a psych because in your town 1NT must not contain empty suit let alone two so the opponents must alert this anomalous style.

[barryallen]

I think that what many are failing to understand, this I suspect is a tournament in name only. Many must have seen those small afternoon sessions at clubs, with a limited number of boards and a core of regular players, many who would not consider entering the regular club evenings.

 

So they have these "odd" rules to try and protect the environment they all feel comfortable and gain pleasure from. The only problem here is failing to recognise the event for what it is and proceed accordingly.

[helene_t]

Right, so the rule is that if you appear to play an alien style then you risk getting your results adjusted.

 

Of course nobody can explain what makes a style qualify as alien.

[hotShot]

I don't know what you and your friends consider to be "standard", but I hope you recognize that there are regional and systemic differences about what is considered "standard".

 

They probably have the same agreement as 99% of the world which is "preemptive".

He also had preemptive hand. Maybe it's aggressive action, maybe not.

 

It's not matter of disclosure at all. It's matter of assuming that everybody must conform to your chosen style of play and if they don't they must be psyching.

It is a matter of disclosure, because you have to disclose agreements and partnership experience.

 

Since the OP did not mention that this was a "first time pickup partnership", I assume that they have a partnership experience about preempts, that should have been disclosed.

 

Even without detailed agreements, you usually have meta-agreements about 2nd suits, that you are required to disclose.

[bluecalm]

It is a matter of disclosure, because you have to disclose agreements and partnership experience.

 

Online bridge would be unplayable then. Every bid would have to be explained with an essay.

 

1♠* alert !

 

We open all 12's and nice 11's. If he has like 6-4 with good suits he can even have 9hcp. For example he opened 1♠ 2 weeks ago with this hand: AKT9xx x xx QT9x.

Also we usually don't open 22 counts. Those goes to 2♣. With 7 carders we prefer jumping to 4♠ unless hand has slam potential opposite less than 12' balanced.

 

And so on so on so on for every bid.

 

Of course we can't/don't want require people to do that. We have to settle for some simpler rules. What you are proposing is assuming that if something doesn't conform to your or td's pet style it's alertable. What I am saying is that they have standard agreement which is "preemptive". People play whole lot of different styles and for many of them 4♥ with this hand is standard, for others it's aggressive, for others it's not an option. The point is for all of them it's preemptive and that's what opponents knew on this hand.

I am for example not sure if any of my partners would jump to 4♥ with this hand. I suspect some of them would if favorable but my agreement is simply "preemptive, wide ranging" with some and just "preemptive" with most.

 

Even without detailed agreements, you usually have meta-agreements about 2nd suits, that you are required to disclose.

 

I don't get it. He clearly treated it as one suited hand. Maybe you see it as 2 suiter but that's your judgement. This player had different view on the matter.

I hope you are not saying that he bid 4♥ as major 2 suiter and his partner knew it ?

[hotShot]

A psyche is a gross deviation from your agreements.

 

So the TD should ask about the agreements first.

 

If the agreement itself is not illegal, the TD can decide if the deviation is minor or gross.

 

OP did not mention that the TD asked about the agreement, so unless there was a disclosure in the alert box, the decision process was flawed.

 

I think it's wrong to ban psyches, but if the announced rules are that psyches are not allowed, you either don't play there or you don't psyche.

 

A no psyche rule is ridicules, because if you follow it e.g. misbids have to be treated as an illegal psyche.

 

The OP further states that is was an optimistic preempt, I read that as partners preempt was outside the the expected range.