Forcing to 4S.. defining the hands

[inquiry]

I want to discuss forcing to four spade opposite a 1H opening bid by partner... Here are the auctions.

 

1H-4S

1H-1S-2D-4S

1H-1S-2D-3C-3D-4S

1H-1S-2D-3C-3D-3S-3N-4S

 

I think we can all imagine what a 1H-4S bid looks like, and how it differs from 1H-1S-2D-4S. Feel free to discuss those if you like, but I am more interested in how bidding fourth suit forcing then jump to 4S differs from 1H-1S-2D-4S, and if you think fourth suit forcing, then rebid 3S then 4S is stronger or weaker than the immediate 4S after 4th suit forcing.

 

Design some hands you would bid each way, and which (if any) of these auctions would you choose with the the following hand.

 

[hv=s=sakt9863had6caj93]133|100|Scoring: IMPS[/hv]

[pclayton]

1♥-4♠: KQJxxxxx, x, xx, xx. Nothing outside, and want to shut out a possible 5 of a minor.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-4♠: KQJxxxx, x, Qxx, xx where the 2♦ call gives you reason to re-evaluate.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣-3♦-4♠: The subject hand seems to fit in this genre: AKT9xxx, A, xx, AJxx. Since 3♠is forcing, 4♠ shows a decent suit (2 or top 3). I don't play this as a fast arrival sequence, just a good suit.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣-3♦-3♠-3N-4♠: Similar to above, but worse, and likely, longer spades: KJxxxxxx, x, x, AQx

[luke warm]

1H-4S

1H-1S-2D-4S

1H-1S-2D-3C-3D-4S

1H-1S-2D-3C-3D-3S-3N-4S

 

Dealer: ??? Vul: ??? Scoring: IMPS

♠ AKT9863 ♥ A ♦ 6 ♣ AJ93

i don't think i'd bid any of those on this hand... if 4D is rkc, i bid it... if not, 4nt as rkc... i'm playing in 5 or 6♠ and i want to know what pard has.. so i bid this hand like #3 or 4 except 4D or 4nt after 3D

 

on bidding 1 & 2, i think 4♠ shows at most 10 hcp and great suits... hands 3 & 4 show the same, except far better hands (imo)

[EricK]

1♥-4♠: KQJxxxxxx, x, xx, xx. Nothing outside, and want to shut out a possible 5 of a minor.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-4♠: KQJxxxxx, x, Qxx, xx where the 2♦ call gives you reason to re-evaluate.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣-3♦-4♠: The subject hand seems to fit in this genre: AKT9xxx, A, xx, AJxx. Since 3♠is forcing, 4♠ shows a decent suit (2 or top 3). I don't play this as a fast arrival sequence, just a good suit.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣-3♦-3♠-3N-4♠: Similar to above, but worse, and likely, longer spades: KJxxxxxx, x, x, AQx

Both your first two hands have 14 cards. I assume each has one spade too many.

 

On the second hand, what were you planning to bid on the second round if partner had bid 2♣? This hand still looks like an immediate 4♠ bid to me. I think the difference between 1H 1S 2D 4S and 1H 4S is that the former shows about an Ace more than the latter (eg KQJxxxx x xx Axx v KQJxxxx x xx xxx).

 

Eric

[pclayton]

1♥-4♠: KQJxxxxxx, x, xx, xx. Nothing outside, and want to shut out a possible 5 of a minor.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-4♠: KQJxxxxx, x, Qxx, xx where the 2♦ call gives you reason to re-evaluate.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣-3♦-4♠: The subject hand seems to fit in this genre: AKT9xxx, A, xx, AJxx. Since 3♠is forcing, 4♠ shows a decent suit (2 or top 3). I don't play this as a fast arrival sequence, just a good suit.

 

1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣-3♦-3♠-3N-4♠: Similar to above, but worse, and likely, longer spades: KJxxxxxx, x, x, AQx

Both your first two hands have 14 cards. I assume each has one spade too many.

 

On the second hand, what were you planning to bid on the second round if partner had bid 2♣? This hand still looks like an immediate 4♠ bid to me. I think the difference between 1H 1S 2D 4S and 1H 4S is that the former shows about an Ace more than the latter (eg KQJxxxx x xx Axx v KQJxxxx x xx xxx).

 

Eric

Thx, I edited out the extra ♠ in the first two.

 

If a hand like: x, AKxxx, Kxxx, xxx is considered an opener these days (27 ZARS), then I don't think the 2nd hand is worth a game force, unless the Q♦ is working.

 

If these hands had an outsde ace, then they are rather slammish in my opinion.