Lost IMPs making slam

[Gerben42]

That's a first for me. Bid and made slam in the MBC and lost IMPs!

 

[hv=w=sat632hakq2dajc43&e=skj8hdkq82cakqt87]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

- 1♣

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 2♠

4NT 5♥

6♠ Pass

 

How would you find out that you should be in 7N?

[jdonn]

1♠ 2♣

2♥ 2♠

2NT 3♦

3♥ 4♣

4♦ 4♥

4NT 5♥

6♠ 6NT

7NT

 

East is so strong he can overrule 6♠ to 6NT.

West knows east doesn't have the spade queen, so to do that needs all the keycards plus a lot of tricks and can bid 7NT.

The early part of my auction isn't so important, just the first round and last 3 rounds. The main importance of the early part is implying to east that west has good hearts, which allows for the 6NT bid.

 

Even if the hands were like ATxxx AKQx Ax xx and KJx x KQxx AKQTx then 7NT would be very good.

 

Edit: Sorry didn't realize east was dealer, same idea though. East overrules 6♠ to 6NT, west overrules 6NT to 7NT. Or better yet, west places it in 6NT since his partner opens, reverses, then shows shortness in his AKQx. East knows they are off the spade queen (ie they have all the keycards) so he could try 7NT.

[kenrexford]

As a general observation, leaping to 4NT in a GF sequence is often a bad idea, especially when you see such incredible strength.

 

That said, this is a tough one to bid.

[mike777]

Maybe ..if we assume east is dealer?

 

 

 

2c=2d

3c=3s

4s=4nt

5h=7nt

 

 

 

2c=3 loser hand if long minor along with lots of controls.

3c=long minor

 

--

 

or

 

 

 

2c=2d

3c=4d(rkc for clubs)

5c(2 with q) =7nt.

[keylime]

I like 3D after 2S myself. That helps matters significantly. The opening will enjoy knowing the KQxx is opposite a working card/value.

[benlessard]

not easy for my pet system,

 

1S (5S unbal 12-14 or 18-22) ----- 1Nt (relay)

2D (4H)--------------------------------2NT GF (relay break to show H void without 4S support might be better)

3C (5422)-----------------------------4H (H void without 4 trumps support***)

 

here opener has 18 while he was expecting to be 12-14 but all his extras are wasted.

 

It still clearcut to go on.

 

5D (2 no Q not too much wasted values in H)----------

 

here responder can deduce

 

opener has exactly (its the only 12-14 hand with a wasted H value that can possibly bypass 4S --- wich i dont think it is)

 

AT9xx

Axxx

AJ

Jx

 

Or that hes likely 18-22 wich mean a J better than

 

Axxxx

AKQx

Ax

xx

 

or better

 

so he should just bid 7Nt, if hes not sure about the J of D he can still bid 7C wich is what im bidding

 

For my system the key here is to be able to show that opener has a doubleton clubs.

 

*** jumping so high here is atrocious. but

 

3D/3H/3S/4C are used for keyc in the 4 possible trumps suits. 3Nt is to play and 4D is signoff relay.

 

so maybe its better to just bid 3D keycard in S (here it will work like a charmed)

[Cascade]

West can easily imagine 13 tricks after 2♦:

 

Partner has 17+ hcp or so

 

Partner typically has 3=1=4=5 for this auction

 

♠K ♦ KQ ♣ AKQ = 17 hcp will be fairly normal

 

This is two spades, three hearts, four diamonds, three clubs for twelve tricks

 

A stray jack - hearts or clubs will give you 13 tricks

 

The ♠J will give you a finesse for 13 tricks

 

A sixth club will give you a 3=2 break for 13 tricks

 

There maybe a squeeze.

 

While it would be a little bit silly this is very close to a

 

1♣ 1♠

2♦ 7NT auction

 

or

 

1♣ 1♠

2♦ 2♥

2♠ 7NT

[Tomi2]

That's a first for me. Bid and made slam in the MBC and lost IMPs!

 

[hv=w=sat632hakq2dajc43&e=skj8hdkq82cakqt87]266|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

- 1♣

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 2♠

4NT 5♥

6♠ Pass

 

How would you find out that you should be in 7N?

after 4nt east shoud jump to 7nt.

had a similar auction in taiwan, after finding out ♠q is missing I bid 7nt having Jx in partners club suit... unfourtunatly parner did not have the ♣q B)

I think a jump to 4NT must mean "I can place the final contract if you give me your keycards" so if resonder sees trump queen missing but he has some extra tricks unknown he should be allowed to overrule 6 spades. this time my teammates did not agree...

 

last year there was a hand where I overruled to 7NT, it was a laydown and everybody was happy about the great bidding...

[mikeh]

That's a first for me. Bid and made slam in the MBC and lost IMPs!

 

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: IMP

♠ AT632 ♥ AKQ2 ♦ AJ ♣ 43 ♠ KJ8 ♥ [space] ♦ KQ82 ♣ AKQT87

 

-  1♣

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 2♠

4NT 5♥

6♠ Pass

 

How would you find out that you should be in 7N?

after 4nt east shoud jump to 7nt.

had a similar auction in taiwan, after finding out ♠q is missing I bid 7nt having Jx in partners club suit... unfourtunatly parner did not have the ♣q B)

I think a jump to 4NT must mean "I can place the final contract if you give me your keycards" so if resonder sees trump queen missing but he has some extra tricks unknown he should be allowed to overrule 6 spades. this time my teammates did not agree...

 

last year there was a hand where I overruled to 7NT, it was a laydown and everybody was happy about the great bidding...

Jumping to 7N is silly....why can't West hold KQxx in hearts????

[ONEferBRID]

East West

1C - 1S

2D = a Reverse so, 2H! next by Responder is NOT a 4th Suit GF in the normal sense.

 

2H! = Lebensohl over the special 1C>>2D Reverse, and 2NT would be natural / forcing and

2S = 5+ cards, forcing.

 

Anyway, Opener will still support Sp with obvious shortness in Hts.

 

And, how ever you may ask for keycards and find the Sp Q missing, I'd be settling in

6S ( IMPs) or 6NT ( MP )......I'm not prescient enough to find 7NT.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

[ I guess Ron ( Hog) will be telling me that 2oM! is not used as Lebensohl anymore

over the 1C>>2D Reverse, although as far as I know it is still the widely accepted practice ].

[mikeh]

1♣  1♠

2♦  2♥

2♠  3♠

4♣  4♦

4♥  4N

5♥  6N

 

That's the best I could come up with, and I'm not at all convinced that I would have found the 4♦ bid rather than 4N right then.

 

I think it is essential that responder bid 3♠ in this sequence since I don't think that 2♠ necessarily set trump.....especially since I play ingerberman where 2H was usually a sign of weakness...tho (obviously) not always. 3♠ overrules the original weakness presumption and starts a cue bid sequence.

 

If we then use some form of non-serious 3N, 4♣ is an extra values slam try...which is good for West.

 

But can East really overrule 6N when missing either a keycard or the spade Q?

 

Can't responder hold, for 6N, AQxxx KQJx Axx x? Has East unequivocally shown the heart void?

 

Or Axxxx AKQx Axx x..surely opposite an extra-values 4♣ call responder can realistically hope for 12 tops in 6N: partner has at least Kxx x KQJx AKJ10x and most would not make the 'serious' 4♣ call on that holding...so responder may well be picturing Kxx x KQJx AKQxx for 4♣....now 6N is clearly right, and 7N on what we actually hold opposite such a 6N bid needs too much to make it a good contract.

 

Maybe I am being too glass half empty on this, but it looks to me as if some element of knowing the hands has crept into auctions that get us to 7N with any pretence that we know what we are doing.

 

Oh to be playing relay!

[Cyberyeti]

1♣-1♠-2♦-2♥-3♠(better than min reverse, 3145/3046, hands with 4 spades bid differently always)-4N-5N(2 without the Q and a void)-7N (for a non minimum reverse without the Q♠, you can write in Kxx, void, KQxx, AKQxxx and very probably the J♠)

[bucky]

That's a first for me. Bid and made slam in the MBC and lost IMPs!

 

<!-- EASTWEST begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> ????? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AT632 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AKQ2 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AJ </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> 43 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KJ8 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td>  </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> KQ82 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AKQT87 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- EASTWEST end -->

 

-  1♣

1♠ 2♦

2♥ 2♠

4NT 5♥

6♠ Pass

 

How would you find out that you should be in 7N?

after 4nt east shoud jump to 7nt.

had a similar auction in taiwan, after finding out ♠q is missing I bid 7nt having Jx in partners club suit... unfourtunatly parner did not have the ♣q :(

I think a jump to 4NT must mean "I can place the final contract if you give me your keycards" so if resonder sees trump queen missing but he has some extra tricks unknown he should be allowed to overrule 6 spades. this time my teammates did not agree...

 

last year there was a hand where I overruled to 7NT, it was a laydown and everybody was happy about the great bidding...

Jumping to 7N is silly....why can't West hold KQxx in hearts????

Or AQxxx / AKxx / x / Jxx

[Mbodell]

I also have the problem that 2♥ is the artificial weak bid for me after 1♣-1♠-2♦ so playing 2/1 I'd have to go:

 

- 1♣

1♠ 2♦

2♠ ?4♥ (I think this is a splinter for spades, and might lead to less excitement)

4nt 5♥

6♠

 

Not so good.

 

Relay it would be much easier, of course:

 

- 1♣

1♥ 1♠

1nt 2♣

3♣ 3♦

4♥ 7nt

 

A 5=4=2=2 hand with 7 controls opposite east should be good for 7nt most of the time!

[Fluffy]

transfer walsh ain't helping this one either

 

1♣-1♥ (spades)

1♠-2♦ (XYZ)

3♦-

 

 

this becomes a big mess. I play that only balanced 18-19 overrule completing the transfer with 3 cards, but maybe reverse hands should do it as well.

[Codo]

We discussed the hand too, our best shot:

 

1 ♣ 1 ♠

2 ♦ 2 ♥ (GF)

3 ♠ (too strong for just 2 ♠)

3 NT (extras)

4 ♣ 4 NT

5 ♥ 5 NT

7 ♣ 7 NT

 

Opener has shown extras with 3 Spades, but just holds at most KJx in spades, J in HEarts and KQJ in diamonds. You know even before he bis 7 club, that he holds solid clubs. So despite the fact that the queen of spade is missing, you have a shot at a grand in clubs or NT. This explains the 5 NT bid. 7 club confirms the solid clubs and shows the extra length.

[dake50]

Am I seeing this right?

Partner reversed then supported my spades. Big hand !

And I have 3xA +K in 18hcp ?!?!

 

Nothing stopping me from 7N.

[gnasher]

Partner has 17+ hcp or so

 

Partner typically has 3=1=4=5 for this auction

 

♠K ♦ KQ ♣ AKQ = 17 hcp will be fairly normal

Do you really need all that for a reverse when you have three-card support? KJx x KQxx AKxxx looks more like a normal minimum to me, and even with KJx x KQxx AQ10xx I might reverse - it looks really heavy for 2♠.

[gnasher]

The key is for East to show his extra strength before responder takes control (although Josh's suggestion of doing it at the end of the auction might work).

 

Playing natural methods, that's quite hard, because opener will show only reversing values, and responder will probably agree spades and bid Keycard. If responder resists the urge to do that, maybe something like

   -1♣

1♠-2♦

2NT-3♠

4♦-4♥

5♥-6♣

6♥-7♣

7NT

but it's very contrived.

 

In the absurdly complicated 3-way 1♣ system that I play with catch22, we'd reach 3♠ with responder having shown four spades and opener a 3145/3046 game-force. That would probably be enough for responder to bid 7NT once he finds out that ♠Q is missing.

[ahydra]

Depending on who's dealer, it's either quite easy or quite hard for my methods:

 

if East is dealer

 

- 1♣

1♠ 3♦ (jump shows 18-21)

3♥ 4♣ (3♥ is 4SF, 4♣ shows 6cards)

4NT 5NT (RKC for clubs, 2 or 4 KC with a void, clearly in ♥ by counting points)

6♦ 6♠ (ask for the Q - somewhat dodgy in case East didn't have it the ♠K, in which case you may be off in 6NT with a spade lead, but unlikely; East shows the ♣Q and ♠K)

7NT (counting 13 tricks as 6C 2D 3H 2S or 6133 if East has the ♠Q instead of the ♦K)

 

if West is dealer

 

1♠ 2♣

3♥ 4♣ (again jump = 18-21; clubs may be interpreted as a cue for either major or natural - it's not really defined :/ - but hopefully East can keep control)

4♦ 4♥ (either way West has a ♦ cue)

4♠ 5♦ (West keeps cueing as he has no idea what trumps are)

5NT 7NT (pick a slam; East goes for NT based on the 36 combined count and misfit - or he can bid 7♣ and West can probably raise to the NT grand based on the fact he hasn't shown any club cards)

 

It helps if you can set ♣ as trumps so that you get to find out about the 6 top clubs (I'm an optimistic kind of guy, hoping for the 3-2 break).

 

IMO if you play a reverse-oriented system and either player shows a reverse, he needs to do more as both have more than a minimum reverse (particularly East).

 

ahydra

[gnasher]

- 1♣

1♠ 3♦ (jump shows 18-21)

3♥ 4♣ (3♥ is 4SF, 4♣ shows 6cards)

Anybody can construct an auction to 7NT if East doesn't show his spade support. Why would East bid 4♣ rather than 3♠?

[ONEferBRID]

Anybody can construct an auction to 7NT if East doesn't show his spade support. 

Here's one.

Responder

♠ AT632

♥ AKQ2

♦ AJ

♣ 43

 

Opener

♠ KJ8

♥

♦ KQ82

♣ AKQT87

 

Responder gets a gleam in his eye after the 2D Reverse ( 17+ hcp ) .

With his 18 hcp, he knows slam is there and just decides to check for controls at a low level via Minorwood ( 4C!) -- he would stop in 6NT if a keycard were missing:

 

-    -1C

1S - 2D

4C! - 5C! ( 5th step = 2 + void in a major ; analogous to 4NT - 5NT! reply )

5D! ( cQ-ask) - 5S ( cQ + sK ; so obviously the VOID is in Hts )

7NT

No need for a 2nd K-ask:

 

Why? Opener has to have either:

a) the Diam K ( the Diam Q is immaterial ) or

b ) if no Diam K, he has to have the Sp Q for his count .

 

    Responder knows the Cl suit must be at least 6 cards with the Ht void ( either 3 0 4 6 or 2 0 5 6 because

if he only had 5 cds Cl he would have to have 4 cds Sp : 4 0 4 5 but he didn't immediately raise Sp or he is 2 0 5 6 ).

So he is counting on the Cl suit running ( needs a 3-2 split or the Jack falling and Opener has the Ten or Opener also has the Jack ):

 

2s, 3h, 2d, 6c ( assuming the dK ) or

 

3s, 3h, 1d, 6c ( no dK but sQ ).

[Cascade]

Partner has 17+ hcp or so

 

Partner typically has 3=1=4=5 for this auction

 

♠K ♦ KQ ♣ AKQ = 17 hcp will be fairly normal

Do you really need all that for a reverse when you have three-card support? KJx x KQxx AKxxx looks more like a normal minimum to me, and even with KJx x KQxx AQ10xx I might reverse - it looks really heavy for 2♠.

I think you miss my point.

 

I was not suggesting partner had to have those cards but rather the rest of the auction should be aimed at finding evidence not to bid 7NT rather than specifically getting to some other slam.

 

A double dummy analysis this morning says that on the condition that partner has three spades, four diamonds and at least five clubs and 16+ hcp that 7NT is a much bigger favourite than 7S. I appreciate that double dummy will overestimate the number of tricks but it still strongly indicates aiming at no trumps rather than a suit contract here.