Passing 1NTx with a decent hand?

[el mister]

Everyone playing a weak NT, we (NS) had the following sequence:

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&n=sakq642hk4dk74ca7&s=st3ht92dqj52ckqj6]133|200|Scoring: MP

P 1NT X P

P P[/hv]

 

We set it -3 to get a relatively poor score. I was sitting south - seems like I was wrong to pass here? (what about if the colours were reversed?) What would you bid?

[helene_t]

You were certainly right in passing 1NTx. Only run when you have a 5-card suit and you are very weak. Here you don't have a 5-card suit, and you are strong enough that you expect 1NTx to be a good result.

 

Presumably the opener had four spades, if spades had been 3-2 1NTx would have been down a lot.

 

So no blame, just bad luck.

[el mister]

Thks Helene - quite a few other pairs found game in 4♠ (hence our poor score), and everyone is playing Acol, so I wonder how they got there. I guess if opps had played some sort of wriggle sequence N gets a second opportunity to bid.

[bill1157]

Looks like you didn't get all your tricks...

[gwnn]

balanced hands should in general pass out 1NTx no matter how weak or strong they are. 1NTxx is a different kettle of fish...

[cherdanno]

Assuming ♥A was onside and spades split 3-2, you should have set this -5, for a great score.

[Codo]

I guess the problem was more the counterplay.

Even with spades 4-1 you should make 5 spades 4 clubs and a heart for a very good score.

So bidding was fine, but discuss how to show your values while partner runs his spades.

Lavinthal against NT makes your day this time.

[mikeh]

I guess the problem was more the counterplay.

Even with spades 4-1 you should make 5 spades 4 clubs and a heart for a very good score.

So bidding was fine, but discuss how to show your values while partner runs his spades.

Lavinthal against NT makes your day this time.

This is a tough hand for South, especially if spades are 4-1..so let's assume they were and look at it from his perspective...he can pitch 2 discouraging hearts on the 3rd and 4th spades, and then declarer plays A and a heart and he has to make another discard...and then make 2 more while partner runs his spades.

 

It doesn't matter what signals S gives...it isn't about his signalling at all, and Lavinthal, odd-even, udca and so on are all irrelevant.

 

What matters is that he has to know to keep his clubs and throw his diamonds....and all he knows at the critical time is that partner has AKQxxx Kx(x) in the majors...while declarer has some hcp in the minors...I assume dummy is broke.

 

Of course, N can signal the club A by exiting his lowest spade at trick 4...and this is the critical point of the hand...not S's signalling, but North's.

 

S can now reason that declarer has one point in spades, 7 in hearts (when partner wins the K), none in clubs....and cannot have AK diamonds, since that is too many for the weak notrump.

 

Thus S can and should work out that he can throw his diamonds away, in a discouraging fashion, leaving N to work out that S is clinging to ALL his clubs while trhowing away x x J in diamonds....it is easy then to cash the club Ace.....because he, too, will know that declarer has AQJ in hearts, the diamond Ace and the spade J and so partner has the clubs.

 

The same sort of reasoning applies if the spades are splitting....declarer, after cashing the tops, plays his winning spade spots bottom up....S pitches discouraging heart, then discouraging diamond, then more hearts....and partner works out to switch to clubs.

 

As I said, this is not a hand about fancy signalling methods...it is a hand about counting and thinking...with N giving information by the sequence of cards he plays in spades...and both players counting points.

 

In fact, I think this hand is a perfect B/I problem since many B/I players won't realize just how much defence is a partnership game....focussing on S is wrong...this is about both partners helping each other...and thinking.

[nigel_k]

People are correct that pass is the normal action and you could have set it four tricks though the defence is not easy. But partner could have had a worse hand and you can only set it three while 3NT makes.

 

If you don't want to put yourself under pressure in defence it would be fine to just bid 3NT over the double. At any other vulnerability you should definitely pass though.

[qwery_hi]

I guess the problem was more the counterplay.

Even with spades 4-1 you should make 5 spades 4 clubs and a heart for a very good score.

So bidding was fine, but discuss how to show your values while partner runs his spades.

Lavinthal against NT makes your day this time.

This is a tough hand for South, especially if spades are 4-1..so let's assume they were and look at it from his perspective...he can pitch 2 discouraging hearts on the 3rd and 4th spades, and then declarer plays A and a heart and he has to make another discard...and then make 2 more while partner runs his spades.

 

It doesn't matter what signals S gives...it isn't about his signalling at all, and Lavinthal, odd-even, udca and so on are all irrelevant.

 

What matters is that he has to know to keep his clubs and throw his diamonds....and all he knows at the critical time is that partner has AKQxxx Kx(x) in the majors...while declarer has some hcp in the minors...I assume dummy is broke.

 

Of course, N can signal the club A by exiting his lowest spade at trick 4...and this is the critical point of the hand...not S's signalling, but North's.

 

S can now reason that declarer has one point in spades, 7 in hearts (when partner wins the K), none in clubs....and cannot have AK diamonds, since that is too many for the weak notrump.

 

Thus S can and should work out that he can throw his diamonds away, in a discouraging fashion, leaving N to work out that S is clinging to ALL his clubs while trhowing away x x J in diamonds....it is easy then to cash the club Ace.....because he, too, will know that declarer has AQJ in hearts, the diamond Ace and the spade J and so partner has the clubs.

 

The same sort of reasoning applies if the spades are splitting....declarer, after cashing the tops, plays his winning spade spots bottom up....S pitches discouraging heart, then discouraging diamond, then more hearts....and partner works out to switch to clubs.

 

As I said, this is not a hand about fancy signalling methods...it is a hand about counting and thinking...with N giving information by the sequence of cards he plays in spades...and both players counting points.

 

In fact, I think this hand is a perfect B/I problem since many B/I players won't realize just how much defence is a partnership game....focussing on S is wrong...this is about both partners helping each other...and thinking.

This post should be compulsory reading for all B/I.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

With the South hand, pass is the only real option, anything else is ...

 

The only bid to discuss is the X, given the vulnerability, you need to beat

1NT -4 to compensate for an ev. game, but this assumes, you have game,

and that is not certain, so X is reasonable.

 

How to reach 4S - Even if everyone is playing Acol, not everyone may play

the same defence against 1NT, and some may have decided to look for game

instead of looking for a penalty, because of the vul.

And on some table, the E/W pair may have been able to locate there 8 card

suit fit in hearts, and I am pretty sure, that North does not want to defend

against 2Hx, after p showed some live, but if p showes some live, North

also knowes, that N/S can make a game level contract, 4S being the most

likely candidate.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

The contract is great, the defence less so.

 

A useful agreement that I have with most partners is that as soon as the spades are set to run, they are run in suit preference order.

 

If North decides to do this from the top down to show the ♥K (if the suit runs on the go), Middle-up-down for the ♦K or from the bottom up to show the ♣A, either way South gets clues to discard appropriately in time to at least hang on to down four.

[el mister]

I guess the problem was more the counterplay.

Even with spades 4-1 you should make 5 spades 4 clubs and a heart for a very good score.

So bidding was fine, but discuss how to show your values while partner runs his spades.

Lavinthal against NT makes your day this time.

This is a tough hand for South, especially if spades are 4-1..so let's assume they were and look at it from his perspective...he can pitch 2 discouraging hearts on the 3rd and 4th spades, and then declarer plays A and a heart and he has to make another discard...and then make 2 more while partner runs his spades.

 

It doesn't matter what signals S gives...it isn't about his signalling at all, and Lavinthal, odd-even, udca and so on are all irrelevant.

 

What matters is that he has to know to keep his clubs and throw his diamonds....and all he knows at the critical time is that partner has AKQxxx Kx(x) in the majors...while declarer has some hcp in the minors...I assume dummy is broke.

 

Of course, N can signal the club A by exiting his lowest spade at trick 4...and this is the critical point of the hand...not S's signalling, but North's.

 

S can now reason that declarer has one point in spades, 7 in hearts (when partner wins the K), none in clubs....and cannot have AK diamonds, since that is too many for the weak notrump.

 

Thus S can and should work out that he can throw his diamonds away, in a discouraging fashion, leaving N to work out that S is clinging to ALL his clubs while trhowing away x x J in diamonds....it is easy then to cash the club Ace.....because he, too, will know that declarer has AQJ in hearts, the diamond Ace and the spade J and so partner has the clubs.

 

The same sort of reasoning applies if the spades are splitting....declarer, after cashing the tops, plays his winning spade spots bottom up....S pitches discouraging heart, then discouraging diamond, then more hearts....and partner works out to switch to clubs.

 

As I said, this is not a hand about fancy signalling methods...it is a hand about counting and thinking...with N giving information by the sequence of cards he plays in spades...and both players counting points.

 

In fact, I think this hand is a perfect B/I problem since many B/I players won't realize just how much defence is a partnership game....focussing on S is wrong...this is about both partners helping each other...and thinking.

Thks for this detailed reply MikeH, and to others who've posted advice. The layout was exactly as you describe - ♠4-1 and dummy completely broke.

I understand the defence you've described, but I think my problem was more basic than that even - ATT I didn't really grok the fact that we needed to absolutely pummel the contract to get a good score. I've had this this lapse in concentration a few times recently with doubled contracts, its like we've set the contract - hooray! Without realising that we need to set it into next week in order to get a good score. Something to remember for next time.

[mikeh]

I guess the problem was more the counterplay.

Even with spades 4-1 you should make 5 spades 4 clubs and a heart for a very good score.

So bidding was fine, but discuss how to show your values while partner runs his spades.

Lavinthal against NT makes your day this time.

This is a tough hand for South, especially if spades are 4-1..so let's assume they were and look at it from his perspective...he can pitch 2 discouraging hearts on the 3rd and 4th spades, and then declarer plays A and a heart and he has to make another discard...and then make 2 more while partner runs his spades.

 

It doesn't matter what signals S gives...it isn't about his signalling at all, and Lavinthal, odd-even, udca and so on are all irrelevant.

 

What matters is that he has to know to keep his clubs and throw his diamonds....and all he knows at the critical time is that partner has AKQxxx Kx(x) in the majors...while declarer has some hcp in the minors...I assume dummy is broke.

 

Of course, N can signal the club A by exiting his lowest spade at trick 4...and this is the critical point of the hand...not S's signalling, but North's.

 

S can now reason that declarer has one point in spades, 7 in hearts (when partner wins the K), none in clubs....and cannot have AK diamonds, since that is too many for the weak notrump.

 

Thus S can and should work out that he can throw his diamonds away, in a discouraging fashion, leaving N to work out that S is clinging to ALL his clubs while trhowing away x x J in diamonds....it is easy then to cash the club Ace.....because he, too, will know that declarer has AQJ in hearts, the diamond Ace and the spade J and so partner has the clubs.

 

The same sort of reasoning applies if the spades are splitting....declarer, after cashing the tops, plays his winning spade spots bottom up....S pitches discouraging heart, then discouraging diamond, then more hearts....and partner works out to switch to clubs.

 

As I said, this is not a hand about fancy signalling methods...it is a hand about counting and thinking...with N giving information by the sequence of cards he plays in spades...and both players counting points.

 

In fact, I think this hand is a perfect B/I problem since many B/I players won't realize just how much defence is a partnership game....focussing on S is wrong...this is about both partners helping each other...and thinking.

Thks for this detailed reply MikeH, and to others who've posted advice. The layout was exactly as you describe - ♠4-1 and dummy completely broke.

I understand the defence you've described, but I think my problem was more basic than that even - ATT I didn't really grok the fact that we needed to absolutely pummel the contract to get a good score. I've had this this lapse in concentration a few times recently with doubled contracts, its like we've set the contract - hooray! Without realising that we need to set it into next week in order to get a good score. Something to remember for next time.

Thanks for the thanks, but if you want to improve your game, you need to develop the habit of thinking and counting on EVERY hand...not just those where you feel you 'need' to do something special.

 

if you watch experts in action, you will sometimes marvel at how accurately they place cards, and how they create positions that even spectators, looking at all 4 hands, may miss.

 

Some of those experts may be natural card players, to whom this sort of thing comes without effort, but (having played with and against a few of these players) my understanding is that what appears to be effortless is the result of many, many hours, earlier in their career, learning how to count, count and count....both hcp and shape.

 

You will almost certainly not always be able to recognize when a hand calls for this degree of focus. There will be hands where you do not see this even afterwards.

 

So, the way to become expert is actually straightforward, tho easier said than done, at least initially. Count on every hand...if you forget for a hand or two.... refocus and start counting again. Most people with reasonable intelligence find that constant practice makes the process easier, to the point that it becomes second nature....once that happens, your horizons as a declarer or defender open up dramatically, and you will find real beauty in the game.

 

This may not work for you, but in my early days, I used to try to reconstruct all the missing hands while being dummy. I still do it tho now it's just habit. Some players will tell you to rest when dummy, but I'm the intense type...if you are as well...use the time to improve your counting.