x= penalty or x=cooperative

[pirate22]

[hv=d=e&v=n&s=sakqh9865daj10c954]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

East opens 1ht--P--P--x

2ht--? it was reported if S x's 2hts its penalty--so what is the answer.

this was on vu-graph from university match. commentators chucking in Ribald but humerous comments....long delay by south THinking.

What is your arrangement x = penalty or x=cooperative x.

then our humourous commentators waded in.

 

One comment--I played with a partner who said all x are for take out,not penalty,and he was a good player.

next comment came up "i never make penalty x's either" but only at the 7 level .

 

another comment reported.when a 1n/t contract is declared..mosts blurbs come out with "coffee break time!!!!"

another -a certain individual "when 1 n/t declared "he takes a shower".

"but limited to 5 showers per session"

well he bid 2spades-passed out..and made it. opps spades 5/2

 

Pards hand 1065--4--KQ52--KQ1062----- 2hts goes 1 off!

[jdonn]

Penalty is standard but I am more and more convinced over time, and very convinced by now, it should be responsive/values.

[bluecalm]

Penalty is standard but I am more and more convinced over time, and very convinced by now, it should be responsive/values.

 

As he said but I still like penalty.

Some of my bridge playing friends prefer t/o here. Some of them are pretty good players too.

[jdonn]

I don't see why this should be different from the multitude of other situations where if we have a penalty double hand we just pass, and most of the time partner can reopen for us and sometimes he can't and we collect an undoubled penalty, but if we have the other type of hand then we badly need the double to be able to show it (and may collect some good penalties anyway when partner judges to pass it).

[pooltuna]

If you would stoop low enough to make an immediate X of 1♥ you have shown your support for the 3 unbid suits and can now leave the rest to partner. :)

[jdonn]

If you would stoop low enough to make an immediate X of 1♥ you have shown your support for the 3 unbid suits and can now leave the rest to partner. :)

Ever been 2344 before in your life?

[peachy]

Penalty or at the very least, strong desire to defend 2HX. The balancer can overrule with distributional offensive hand, but unlikely that he even has such because he would have either opened or he would have balanced with something other than Dbl.

 

If X now is not penalty, then we in reality do not have a penalty Dbl available at all, unless balancer takes another action and his second action is a second double but how often does balancer risk losing the edge of having pushed them a level higher. Mission accomplished, now shut up, is the most common scenario.

[pooltuna]

If you would stoop low enough to make an immediate X of 1♥ you have shown your support for the 3 unbid suits and can now leave the rest to partner.  :)

Ever been 2344 before in your life?

I've also played 4-3 fits before :)

[jdonn]

If you would stoop low enough to make an immediate X of 1♥ you have shown your support for the 3 unbid suits and can now leave the rest to partner.   :)

Ever been 2344 before in your life?

I've also played 4-3 fits before :)

I don't get what that has to do with anything, you have officially lost me.

[pooltuna]

If you would stoop low enough to make an immediate X of 1♥ you have shown your support for the 3 unbid suits and can now leave the rest to partner.   :)

Ever been 2344 before in your life?

I've also played 4-3 fits before :)

I don't get what that has to do with anything, you have officially lost me.

I thought you were pointing out that responder could be 2344 or similar so our best spot after (1♥) X (P) will be a 4-3 fit.

[awm]

Several arguments for penalty here:

 

(1) The other responsive double sequences usually involve a bid and raise. For example 1♥-X-2♥, the opponents will (usually) have at least eight hearts between them. However, this sequence opener could have six hearts opposite a singleton or void, meaning we are more likely to have a real trump stack and our holding four good trumps doesn't mark partner with a singleton or void.

 

(2) Here the person doubling is "over" virtually all the opponents strength and trumps. This is a much more lucrative position to penalize than when "under" the bidder.

 

(3) Partner may have stretched for his balancing double here, meaning that there are a higher percentage of hands which are "not worth" a second double to protect.

 

Josh's hand with both minors is certainly a possibility too, although perhaps that hand can bid 2NT to show the minors (typically preferring a penalty double with a "natural" notrump invite). I don't really know what the frequencies are for this. Certainly I play this double as takeout in some partnerships, but some of this is because I like to have general rules (i.e. doubles of low-level suit contracts are virtually always takeout) rather than because I think it's technically better. It also may be worth noting that hearts are probably the best place for the penalty double (because both minors hands have to go to the three-level anyway, and if you have spades you would bid them) -- the seemingly similar auctions of 1♠-P-P-X-2♠ and 1♦-P-P-X-2♦ give substantially more merit to responsive double (in the first case because there are three potential pairs of suits to show, in the second because a responsive double lets you play your better major fit at the two-level).

[jdonn]

If you would stoop low enough to make an immediate X of 1♥ you have shown your support for the 3 unbid suits and can now leave the rest to partner.   :)

Ever been 2344 before in your life?

I've also played 4-3 fits before :)

I don't get what that has to do with anything, you have officially lost me.

I thought you were pointing out that responder could be 2344 or similar so our best spot after (1♥) X (P) will be a 4-3 fit.

Ah I see. No my intended point was in response to your comment that I believe was saying if you have a responsive double now you could have made a takeout double of 1♥. But a shape like 2344 can not make a takeout double of 1♥ but will still want a responsive double on the next round.

[pooltuna]

If you would stoop low enough to make an immediate X of 1♥ you have shown your support for the 3 unbid suits and can now leave the rest to partner.   :)

Ever been 2344 before in your life?

I've also played 4-3 fits before :)

I don't get what that has to do with anything, you have officially lost me.

I thought you were pointing out that responder could be 2344 or similar so our best spot after (1♥) X (P) will be a 4-3 fit.

Ah I see. No my intended point was in response to your comment that I believe was saying if you have a responsive double now you could have made a takeout double of 1♥. But a shape like 2344 can not make a takeout double of 1♥ but will still want a responsive double on the next round.

I can agree with that :)

[MFA]

I play penalty here.

[pirate22]

Well, some arrangements discussed here---My own view is i would pass the 1 ht opening,yes i agree one has the shape to support p bid if i did x....but partner could have zilch.so i pass to see what the openers partner has to say---as it happened,

he passed-now my partner came to my {Rescue} is not the right surmise-when the opener rebid his suit -2hts-i respect my partners balancing, and x not for penalties,but a responsive x to say ok pard you choose--and whatever p bids im a happy bunny.

be it pass 3cl-3d-2sp.

 

i raised the issue-to test what arrangements partnerships have at present.

 

a very good point indeed if the bidder over 1 ht opening-- is indeed 2/3/4/4

[cloa513]

Cue hearts- a major part of your strength is in spades, opener is most likely short in spades. Sure his partner might have made a cheap overcall in spades but mostly like he considers them too feeble to bid. Your partner probably has spades maybe five with you holding all the top honours 5 spades is the same as 4. You might miss game in spades when opponent maybe goes down one in hearts- he has six good hearts and an outside ace. Your low four hearts means if opener has one entry to table he can easily finesse partners honour or it even drops.

[gwnn]

Continuing my psychotic takeout double streak; sign me up for a first round double.

[pirate22]

Ok Gwnn:)--we join in with Physcotic x first time it goes then 1ht--X!--p--2cl

2hts-now what Gwnn?

x now?????????? or pass or raise partner?

 

what is the known factor by the 2clubber has got/not got?

and what is known about the e/w hands

[jjbrr]

i also double 1♥ the first time.

 

after p 2♣ 2♥ pass seems pretty obvious!

[manudude03]

Edit: meant for pirate22.

 

Easy pass the first time for me. As for what a second double means, it's still takeout, but with a bigger minimum and usually not 4 card support (say AKJx xx KQJx Kxx)

[TimG]

Ok Gwnn:)--we join in with Physcotic x first time it goes then  1ht--X!--p--2cl

                                                                                        2hts-now what Gwnn?

x now?????????? or pass or raise partner?

 

what is the known factor by the 2clubber  has got/not got?

We know the 2♣ bidder does not have 1065--4--KQ52--KQ1062.

[benlessard]

I play penalty-ish double more often than regular partnership and i play penalty here but i believe that responsive is better or at least as good here, because the opener cannot be "surprised", he know its likely partner can have no entry and possibly a stiff H or no H at all and hes expecting H not to break so since he not under pressure he has no reason to strech to bid 2H.

 

While if it goes

 

1Nt(weak)---(2S)----X

 

the overcaller is under pressure here so he ll often strecth to bid (reasonnably expecting a doubleton S and some points) and can often be nailed successfully.

 

Each time a bidder can reasonably expect something from his partner he can be nailed because the partner may not have the goods and give no trumps support. Nailing a bidder who expect nothing form his partner will need extreme distribution.

 

Here even 6 baby H in the south hand might not change a thing, 6 trumps + side ace for down 1, while hands with points and 3244,2344,3433 are occuring often.

[BudH]

I don't see why this should be different from the multitude of other situations where if we have a penalty double hand we just pass, and most of the time partner can reopen for us and sometimes he can't and we collect an undoubled penalty, but if we have the other type of hand then we badly need the double to be able to show it (and may collect some good penalties anyway when partner judges to pass it).

Yes, but there are plenty of hands where the doubler stretched to double the first time and will never be able to double the second time to allow for a penalty pass.

 

But I agree the double behind the opener showing "cards" comes up more often. As long as it shows a clear majority of high cards for your side without much heart shortness, double should be OK.

[Finch]

I play this as take-out, and have done for ages.

 

Technically I think it's right to play it as penalties against weak players (who like to bid again here on poor suits) and take-out against good players (who generally have a good suit). But then I decided it was too difficult to have that as an agreement, and we'd just beat the weak players some other way.