Meaning of 5N

[Phil]

This came up in NO. A friend of mine gave me the auction:

 

2♥ - (2♠) - 5N

 

What is 5N?

 

For bonus points, what is 4♠? 5♠?

 

Thanks

[kenrexford]

I doubt you will find anyone who has ever discussed this sequence, or anything like it. The interpretation of this call should probably, therefore, be tied to general partnership defaults for strange auctions like this.

 

I know what I would have if I bid 5NT. I have something weird. Partner picks his best minor, just because. I might be doing this with full intent to pull back to 6♥, whether to make or as a sacrifice, but with interest in which minor to lead.

 

In other words, think this through from the perspective of a sensible auction.

 

One plausible auction is 2♥-(2♠)-6♥-(6♠)-all pass. I'm on lead. Wild ass guessing results.

 

Consider, then, an alternative plausible auction:

 

2♥-(2♠)-5NT!!!-X-

6♣-P-P-6♠-all pass

 

My bid below 6♣, and the opponents' failure to preempt 6♣, allowed me to induce a lead-director, sort of.

 

So, then, what would 5♠ mean? I have no idea. Exclusion, I suppose. If I were the Opener, I would answer Exclusion. It might be "funny" Exclusion, to give partner incentive to sacrifice knowing that I have no spades, but that would be odd. It might also be "funny" because I have Qxx and want to "exclude" that answer to RKCB so that Declarer guesses the Queen wrong.

[gwnn]

I think it should be a 6♥ bid with something

 

I was thinking that it might be a 6♥ bid that sets up a forcing pass, but then we're inviting 7♥? That would mean that it's a grand try but then we could bid lower. But maybe it means "bid 7♥ over their 6♠ if you don't have a defensive trick" but what is this? telling opps that 6♠ is probably cold?!?!?! but maybe we could psyche this?!???

 

I don't like anything that involves "both minors" or something weirder.

 

It could also make sense to just mean 6♥ bid with some lead preference.

 

quoting Sting:

 

If this was all correct

The last thing I'd expect

The prosecution rests

It's time that I confess: I have no idea

[mikeh]

It may be that there is some nice bridge logic to this being something other than GSF, but, even if there is, partner is an idiot for using it opposite me.

 

We play GSF in some sequences. While we have not discussed this sequence, it meets the parameters of GSF. We have, as a partnership, named only one playable suit, and there was zero need to leap to 5N if he has a force in one or both minors....he would bid one now. So it cannot be pick a slam.

 

He will realize that I will realize that he isn't trying to be a genius. Genius bids are ok IF a normal meaning is impossible and so partner will try to figure out the genius meaning. But when a call is susceptible to interpretation as a 'normal' action, albeit in a new sequence...then only an idiot would assume partner will think it is anything else.

 

BTW, the 'idiot' part isn't necessarily a knock on his bridge logic....but it is a knock on making a genius call opposite a stick like me. Maybe he has AQx Axx AKQJxxx void or the like.

[whereagles]

This came up in NO. A friend of mine gave me the auction:

2♥ - (2♠) - 5N

 

1. What is 5N?

 

2. For bonus points, what is 4♠? 5♠?

 

3. Thanks

1. Incredibly, I actually have this one defined. It's a save suggesting bid!

 

2. By meta rules, splinters. The 5 level one is surely a void.

 

3. You're welcome.

[cloa513]

I'll bite.

Exclusion blackwood of hearts. Any one of the following wacky hands.

I wasn't careful with the numbers add a singleton ace of hearts or move the ace from a long minor to the other suit if you like.

♣KQJxxxxx ♦ AKQxxxxx ♠ AK or A or void (adjust the count on the other minors at least 6/5- unlike 4NT you don't care about preferred fit in minor - just if he has an minor ace)

♣x ♦ AKQxxx ♠ AKQJxxxxx (you assume the original over call was a psyche or weak four with long minor.

♦ x ♣AKQxxxxx ♥AKxxx (you don't care about partner's queen of hearts but don't want opponents to guess to bid spades easily)

 

 

 

partner bids 5♣ with no non-heart aces - you pick final suit, 5♦ with one ace

5♥ with rediculously selfsupporting hearts and one outside ace (why he'd choose 2♥ rather than 1♥ 5♠ with two aces (one is singleton) 6NT with two aces (at least doubleton Ax)

[hatchett]

I'll bite.

Exclusion blackwood of hearts

 

Kenrexford must have more than one id

[Fluffy]

this is an obvious GSF

[manudude03]

5NT- grand slam force

5S- minor suit enquiry (either to play 6m or a grand try)

4S- exclusion KC

[cherdanno]

Mike said it all.

[pooltuna]

Mike said it all.

yeah but he could have used just 4 letters to say the same thing....K.I.S.S. :)

[Phil]

This auction occurred at the table and the player wasn't creative enough to use it as anything but GSF.

 

Part II:

 

2♥ - (2♠) - 5N - (6♠)

 

What do you think pass, double and 7♣ show?

[cherdanno]

Mike said it all.

yeah but he could have used just 4 letters to say the same thing....K.I.S.S. :)

I didn't say that all that Mikeh said needed to be said :)

[pooltuna]

This auction occurred at the table and the player wasn't creative enough to use it as anything but GSF.

 

Part II:

 

2♥ - (2♠) - 5N - (6♠)

 

What do you think pass, double and 7♣ show?

pass=no

double=lead my void

7C=yes and I have another possible place to play

[Phil]

This auction occurred at the table and the player wasn't creative enough to use it as anything but GSF.

 

Part II:

 

2♥ - (2♠) - 5N - (6♠)

 

What do you think pass, double and 7♣ show?

pass=no

double=lead my void

7C=yes and I have another possible place to play

"?"

[mikeh]

pass: I have the Ace of your void and good hearts in context (not 2/3 tops ones)

 

This may allow partner to count 13 tricks or 12 winners in 6N

 

7♣: my normal bid with 2/3 top hearts (if one bids 7♥ one deserves to find the equivalent of void Ax AQx AKQJ10xxx (assuming no exclusion was available, adjust to suit if the void has to be a minor) and no way off dummy when they lead the void suit.

 

Double...denies either of the above.

 

There is some merit in 6N with a side Ace and good hearts in context...if partner has the huge one-suiter, we probably have 12 tricks without the hearts coming in for more than 2 tricks, but he might have some 5530 and the 5 card suits don't break. So I reject that idea.

[pooltuna]

This auction occurred at the table and the player wasn't creative enough to use it as anything but GSF.

 

Part II:

 

2♥ - (2♠) - 5N - (6♠)

 

What do you think pass, double and 7♣ show?

pass=no

double=lead my void

7C=yes and I have another possible place to play

"?"

your're going to have to be more specific

[Phil]

pass: I have the Ace of your void and good hearts in context (not 2/3 tops ones)

 

This may allow partner to count 13 tricks or 12 winners in 6N

 

7♣: my normal bid with 2/3 top hearts (if one bids 7♥ one deserves to find the equivalent of void Ax AQx AKQJ10xxx (assuming no exclusion was available, adjust to suit if the void has to be a minor) and no way off dummy when they lead the void suit.

 

Double...denies either of the above.

 

There is some merit in 6N with a side Ace and good hearts in context...if partner has the huge one-suiter, we probably have 12 tricks without the hearts coming in for more than 2 tricks, but he might have some 5530 and the 5 card suits don't break. So I reject that idea.

Mike, it seems to me that normal forcing pass do not apply. Partner has already expressed an interest in playing at the 7 level regardless of our spade holding.

 

The 'express interest in 6N' by showing the ace of their suit is interesting, however, if partner is relying on our heart suit for slam, and we are missing an honor, I don't see how we can make 12 tricks in 6N, unless partner has a 9-10 tricks in the minors himself.

 

Therefore, it seems pass and double would indicate something different than what we have in spades.

[mikeh]

pass: I have the Ace of your void and good hearts in context (not 2/3 tops ones)

 

This may allow partner to count 13 tricks or 12 winners in 6N

 

7♣: my normal bid with 2/3 top hearts (if one bids 7♥ one deserves to find the equivalent of void Ax AQx AKQJ10xxx (assuming no exclusion was available, adjust to suit if the void has to be a minor) and no way off dummy when they lead the void suit.

 

Double...denies either of the above.

 

There is some merit in 6N with a side Ace and good hearts in context...if partner has the huge one-suiter, we probably have 12 tricks without the hearts coming in for more than 2 tricks, but he might have some 5530 and the 5 card suits don't break. So I reject that idea.

Mike, it seems to me that normal forcing pass do not apply. Partner has already expressed an interest in playing at the 7 level regardless of our spade holding.

 

The 'express interest in 6N' by showing the ace of their suit is interesting, however, if partner is relying on our heart suit for slam, and we are missing an honor, I don't see how we can make 12 tricks in 6N, unless partner has a 9-10 tricks in the minors himself.

 

Therefore, it seems pass and double would indicate something different than what we have in spades.

Phil, you misunderstood my post.

 

We know partner has 3 side suit 1st round controls for his GSF. We also known that one of them is a void...but that void need not be in spades. Indeed, if we had exclusion available, which I would, it means that his void is probably a minor.....not that we care.

 

The point is that he knows we know this.

 

So making a FP expresses interest in bidding over 6♠ even tho we lack 2/3 top hearts.

 

We must be considering 6N...catering to some hand such as Ax Axx AKQJxxxx void....if I have the club Ace, we have 11 tops in 6N and presumably either the heart King (which I happen to think would be a sure bet) or maybe at worst a hook through the stronger opp hand for the King.

 

So my reference to holding the Ace of his void meant just that: regardless of what that suit was. My pass says nothing at all about spades unless that is his void. Any Ace I have outside of hearts HAS to be his void...unless he has a 10 card minor, in which case he's bidding that suit anyway no matter what...he won't play me for 2 side Aces and the heart King :)

[cherdanno]

Assuming you can show no honor/one honor/two top honors in reply to the GSF, I would interpret

- double as no honor,

- pass as one honor, and

- bidding as two honors.

 

Trying to get to 6NT opposite a GSF is too complicated for me.

[Fluffy]

I would interpret the same as arend double the most negative and pass the blame transfer.

 

however I'd double with just ♥Q also.

[mikeh]

Assuming you can show no honor/one honor/two top honors in reply to the GSF, I would interpret

- double as no honor,

- pass as one honor, and

- bidding as two honors.

 

Trying to get to 6NT opposite a GSF is too complicated for me.

and what is the point of this?

 

He wanted 2/3 to bid grand...if you don't have 2/3, he is never bidding grand..so why distinguish one and none of the honours? I don't get it...aren't our bids supposed to help partner? How does showing one or none do that?

[cherdanno]

Assuming you can show no honor/one honor/two top honors in reply to the GSF, I would interpret

- double as no honor,

- pass as one honor, and

- bidding as two honors.

 

Trying to get to 6NT opposite a GSF is too complicated for me.

and what is the point of this?

 

He wanted 2/3 to bid grand...if you don't have 2/3, he is never bidding grand..so why distinguish one and none of the honours? I don't get it...aren't our bids supposed to help partner? How does showing one or none do that?

It may not have made it to Canada yet, but it is rather common to use replies to GSF that distinguish between no top honor, just A or K, or 2 out of top 3 (or even finer than that, depending on how many steps you have available). This means that partner can use it e.g. with Kxxx support opposite a weak 2, or Axxxx opposite a 1M opening.

 

(I don't think it is pre-alertable, btw.)

[mikeh]

Assuming you can show no honor/one honor/two top honors in reply to the GSF, I would interpret

- double as no honor,

- pass as one honor, and

- bidding as two honors.

 

Trying to get to 6NT opposite a GSF is too complicated for me.

and what is the point of this?

 

He wanted 2/3 to bid grand...if you don't have 2/3, he is never bidding grand..so why distinguish one and none of the honours? I don't get it...aren't our bids supposed to help partner? How does showing one or none do that?

It may not have made it to Canada yet, but it is rather common to use replies to GSF that distinguish between no top honor, just A or K, or 2 out of top 3 (or even finer than that, depending on how many steps you have available). This means that partner can use it e.g. with Kxxx support opposite a weak 2, or Axxxx opposite a 1M opening.

 

(I don't think it is pre-alertable, btw.)

Sarcasm ill-suits you.

 

I realize that you may well be the type of player who recoils in horror from the prospect of committing to no losers when holding Axxx and finding that partner's weak 2 bid was no more than Kxxxxx. Me...I live on the edge....I wouldn't use GSF opposite my partner's weak 2 bid holding Axxx...I'd use blackwood or cue bid and then use exclusion or something.

 

And it isn't a big step, for me anyway, to go from there and assume that Kxxx would be adequate for no losers opposite Axxxxx.

 

So in my canadian partnerships, where we have had step responses to GSF for some 20+ years, we tend to take risks that a 10 card fit headed by at least the AK will be a playable trump suit.

 

So my partner won't have Kxxx or Axxx for his GSF. Yours may...I see that you could easily....but then you are so much more solid a player than I am.

 

For you...yes I can see that you need the step response above small slam.....so that maybe when preempted you can take a huge, huge daring leap to the grand you were otherwise missing with Kxxx opposite AJxxxx. Good for you.

 

For me....not needed, sorry...we daring Canadians didn't use GSF on that layout.

 

*sarcasm off*

[cherdanno]

Mike, I truly don't understand what you are saying. If I have Kxxx support for partner's weak 2, and a hand unsuitable for RKCB or exclusion and no losers outside of trumps, then I would use GSF. I assume you would, too. Both of our partner would tell us in reply to 5N that they have A or K of trumps. Both of us would then bid the grand.

Then if LHO preempts with 6S, both of us would still like to know whether partner has one of A or K of trumps, because neither of us would like to risk 7H sith Kxxx opposite QJTxxx. I would find that out because partner will pass with A or K, and double with less.

 

Somewhere I must have gone wrong. Apparently you have step responses to 5N that show A or K of trumps, but you never use them except, because you only bid GSF when you need 2/3 top honors to bid the grand.