3NT or 5m?

[vuroth]

[hv=d=w&v=n&n=s974hj32dckqjt764&s=saq86ha876dakjc83]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

Opponents silent. How should the bidding go?

[billw55]

I would expect p-3♣-p-3NT. I lack the imagination to produce complicated auctions with such hands. It seems I would go down.

[ArtK78]

There is another possibility. If your preempting style allows for very light preempts nonvul, a possible auction is 3♣ - All Pass.

 

If this is a standard preempt in your partnership:

 

x

xx

xxx

KJTxxxx

 

Then where would you want to play the hand?

 

Quite frankly, with the hand given, 3NT is a downright silly contract, and 5♣ is not the greatest contract ever seen (it is certainly a reasonable contract). But you might get a favorable opening lead or a lucky lie of the cards to make.

 

With my regular partner, we cannot open this hand 3♣ as we have an unusual agreement that a 3 of a minor opening in 1st or 2nd seat shows a suit headed by AQ or AK or better. So we might get to 5♣ by having South open the bidding.

[Phil]

4♣ - 5♣ - pass

[vuroth]

All 10 tables, including us, played in 3NT. Still, neither my partner nor I were quite happy with the contract, but we couldn't see a clear solution.

[jdonn]

3♣ p 3NT, hate opening 4♣ with length in both majors, not to mention it's 2nd seat.

[pooltuna]

3♣ p 3NT, hate opening 4♣ with length in both majors, not to mention it's 2nd seat.

this gets my vote

[vuroth]

Ok, well, it seems like what we did is a popular route, so that's good I guess. I wondered if some would consider pulling to 5C with a void and no outside entry, but pulling will often be wrong in general, and especially at matchpoints.

 

Thanks.

 

W

[jdonn]

Don't pull! I promise if you do partner will have QJT8 QT98 AKQ Ax :D

[Phil]

3♣ p 3NT, hate opening 4♣ with length in both majors, not to mention it's 2nd seat.

Eh, didn't notice we were in 2nd seat so change me to 3(edit)♣.

 

Making 10 tricks in NT seems dubious, even if pard has a better suit and seems break-even at best with 5♣, so change me to 3♣ - pass - 5♣.

[aguahombre]

Didn't look to see whether 3C was in 3rd chair. Just assumed for some reason that I hadn't had a chance to bid yet. 5C feels good.

[billw55]

All 10 tables, including us, played in 3NT.  Still, neither my partner nor I were quite happy with the contract, but we couldn't see a clear solution.

So how many defending pairs failed to hold up the ♣A? :angry:

[nigel_k]

I definitely agree with North's action. 5♣ instead of 3NT is an option for South. I would probably bid 3NT but I think it's close.

[pooltuna]

All 10 tables, including us, played in 3NT.  Still, neither my partner nor I were quite happy with the contract, but we couldn't see a clear solution.

So how many defending pairs failed to hold up the ♣A? :angry:

maybe not so much a failure as an inability to hold up. :)

[kenrexford]

3NT with the South hand seems crazy to me.

 

If partner has the King-Queen, 3NT is likely down without even a prayer.

 

Even when partner has the Ace, things can go seriously wrong.

 

Compare this with an insane blast to 6♣. Now, if the clubs come in for seven tricks, you are on a hook at worst for 12 tricks. If the clubs come in for six tricks, slam still might be made, and perhaps even on pure power.

[JLOGIC]

I AM A PSYCHOPATH BUT MIKEH IS GIVING ME THE HELP I NEED

[Fluffy]

being match points, do you think you should pull 3NT with subminimum hands or awful suits?, I believe there should be some hands where it is worth it, yet I never done so except once with ♦Qxxxxxx and out (was a success)

[minimonkey]

3NT seems wrong.

 

If clubs are worth 7 tricks then 3NT wins, fine. In the more likely instance clubs are worth 6 tricks then 5C feels like a very superior contract to me whilst 3NT will really struggle.

[Cyberyeti]

being match points, do you think you should pull 3NT with subminimum hands or awful suits?, I believe there should be some hands where it is worth it, yet I never done so except once with ♦Qxxxxxx and out (was a success)

I don't open those in second seat as this case is, but a valid question for 1st.

 

No offense to anyone in this thread but I always thought bidding 3C p 3N with a bunch of aces/kings and 2 small clubs was a mistake only beginners make.

 

It is not shocking to find out that partner has no entry and your clubs cannot run, it is what is expected.

 

Agreed, the only time you seriously lose in 5C is if partner has opened 3♣ on 6 solid where 3N makes at least +1 all the time (and 5C is not guaranteed to make).

 

Of course you're taking a reasonable gamble in 3N opposite AQJxxxx but are dead in the water opposite KQJxxxx most of the time. At pairs you may have a very tricky decision opposite AKxxxxx on a heart lead.

[billw55]

dead in the water opposite KQJxxxx most of the time.

It is not shocking to find out that partner has no entry and your clubs cannot run, it is what is expected.

 

Is it really that certain that north has no entry? Looking at the south cards, it seems like there are several side cards north might hold that could become an entry. ♦Q, ♠K and ♥K are locks. ♥Qx(x) and ♠Jx(x) have chances. Also north might hold ♣AK or AQJ, or KQ(J) and A is stiff. Heck, even on the actual hand ♥Jxx is 25% for LHO to hold KQ. Adding all that up, I was sure that the clubs run more than 50% of the time, and this is matchpoints after all.

 

Is there some rule that non-vul preempts are barred from having an outside honor card? Would you bid 1♣ with the north hand plus a major suit king? Some would, but some would not. How about the ♦Q?

[vuroth]

All 10 tables, including us, played in 3NT.  Still, neither my partner nor I were quite happy with the contract, but we couldn't see a clear solution.

So how many defending pairs failed to hold up the ♣A? B)

Actually, I didn't see anyone that failed to hold up. I was quite surprised (I don't have a lot of faith in the field).

[vuroth]

No offense to anyone in this thread but I always thought bidding 3C p 3N with a bunch of aces/kings and 2 small clubs was a mistake only beginners make.

No offense taken, here.

 

I did feel that the field would be in 3NT (I was right), and that there was a decent chance of a misdefense in clubs if I needed one (I was wrong). I also felt that partner might bid 3♣ NV with 7 semi-solid clubs and an outside card. I certainly could foresee the possibility that 3NT could be a total disaster, but the part that I wasn't certain about was what that would mean from a matchpoint perspective. I think at IMPs I don't even consider 3NT.

 

That said, I find billw55's analysis kind of compelling. With partner's club holding:

- 3NT is 100% if partner holds the K♠, K♥ or Q♦

- 3NT is ~50% if partner holds the J♠ or Q♥

- The J♥ and T♠ give some chances, too.

 

The biggest thing, for me, was trying to figure out what partner might and might not hold. If your partner is wont to open 3♣ NV second seat with 6 ♣s and no outside cards, or with a weaker ♣ suit, I think pass is a whole lot clearer.

 

Naturally, as I continue to play with this partner, I'll continue to get a better idea what kinds of hands he's likely to hold.

[pooltuna]

No offense to anyone in this thread but I always thought bidding 3C p 3N with a bunch of aces/kings and 2 small clubs was a mistake only beginners make.

 

It is not shocking to find out that partner has no entry and your clubs cannot run, it is what is expected.

generally agree but I allow my partners to hold ♣AKxxxxx or AQxxxxx. So yes if partner is barred from preempting if he holds the A in his suit I can see where 3NT could never be right not that I am wildly happy bidding 3NT as it is. IMV there is a good argument for just passing if this is MP (I'd have to go back and look to see if it is) I don't think jumping to 5♣ is a whole lot better if any than bidding 3NT.

[kenrexford]

3NT might make, but this is the kind of bidding decision that makes MP offensive. Bidding anything except 5♣ is not real bridge.

[Cyberyeti]

That said, I find billw55's analysis kind of compelling. With partner's club holding:

- 3NT is 100% if partner holds the K♠, K♥ or Q♦

- 3NT is ~50% if partner holds the J♠ or Q♥

- The J♥ and T♠ give some chances, too.

 

 

This is of course rubbish, he can have K♠ or Q♦ or both but if I'm on lead with any non blocked 5 card ♥ suit and ♣A you're not going to make 3N, and the honours in the second case mustn't be stiff, and the third case mustn't be doubleton.