4S Via 1N: Bid Right?

[gurgistan]

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=sakqj7ha93dkq65c4&s=st32hkq6dat9ck853]133|200|Scoring: IMP

In an uncontested auction bidding goes: 1♠-1N-3♦-3♠-4♠.

 

We make with 2 overtricks on a 2♥ lead from East and lose 3 IMPs. Partner thought I underbid this. I think my 3♠ via 1N correct. Or does my rebid change on his bid of 3♦? Should my partner have bid 4♣ after my 3♠ to show his singleton and given me the chance to bid on to slam or stop in game? [/hv]

 

Any and all help appreciated.

[TylerE]

100% to south. Imo after 3♦ I'm forcing to slam with the south hand unless found to be off two keycards.

 

 

Also if playing standard american/SAYC south should just make a limit raise immediatly, then North can probably drive to slam.

[ArtK78]

While I certainly give all of the blame to South, I cannot agree with the comment about making a limit raise immediately.

 

Assuming that it was South's intention to make a limit raise (and I am sure many would rate the South hand as a game force), it is perfectly normal to show a 3-card limit raise by bidding 1NT and then jumping to 3♠.

 

Once North bids 3♦, South should, at a minimum, continue with 4NT over 4♠. Unfortunately, it is difficult for South to determine whether 6♠ by North or 6NT by South is the correct contract. South does not know about North's singleton club, and could reasonably conclude that he should protect his ♣K by bidding 6NT. Clearly, 6♠ is a much better contract than 6NT.

 

By the way, 6♠ is not a claim, as you need either the ♣A onside or some favorable position in the diamond suit to make 12 tricks. But it is a good contract, while 6NT is not as good.

 

EDIT: Many play that 4♠ over 3♦ shows that South intended to make a 3-card limit raise. Then North can take control of the auction and get to 6♠ without too much trouble.

[Fluffy]

this depends on what you think 3♠ shows, the problem is: for most people it could be 8 count with a doubleton spade. So the south hand doesn't make it justice and should move on.

 

To some people (you won't find many) 3♠ shows 3 cards and invitational values, there you are ok, but obviously north didn't think that way.

[TylerE]

Ugh, it's monday morning. Yea, scratch the limit raise. Doesn't really matter anyway...south basically utterly failed to play bridge.

[ONEferBRID]

Playing 2/1, make the 1NT! forcing 1 Rnd and planning to jump to 3S over a minimum rebid by partner in order to show your 3 card limit raise.

 

But after the GF SJS by partner, 3S is one of the weakest rebids and could be as few as 2 cards Sp.

 

Standard for most ( but maybe not most here on the Forums ) is a 4S-jump to show your 3 card support with limit raise values -- ie. a hand that would have jumped to 3S over a minimum rebid such as 2C/2D/2H.

[aguahombre]

Playing 2/1, make the 1NT! forcing 1 Rnd and planning to jump to 3S over a minimum rebid by partner in order to show your 3 card limit raise.

 

But after the GF SJS by partner, 3S is one of the weakest rebids and could be as few as 2 cards Sp.

 

Standard for most ( but maybe not most here on the Forums ) is a 4S-jump to show your 3 card support with limit raise values -- ie. a hand that would have jumped to 3S over a minimum rebid such as 2C/2D/2H.

Yes, but for those who dislike the space-consuming jump to 4S --3S can be either/or --- with agreements on follow-ups.

 

If that is the case, Opener would not bid 4S with only 5 of them, allowing responder to show real spade support (therefore a limit raise). It is not likely 3NT will be a problem contract if responder couldn't bid hearts or support diamonds, yet made a pseudo-preference of spades with only 2 of them.

 

Too many variables if playing constructive raises and having to go through 1NT with a bad raise. Someone who plays constructive raises suggested a while back that the jump to 4S be the non-constructive raise after a JS.

Edited August 2, 2010 by aguahombre

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=sakqj7ha93dkq65c4&s=st32hkq6dat9ck853]133|200|Scoring: IMP

In an uncontested auction bidding goes: 1♠-1N-3♦-3♠-4♠.

 

We make with 2 overtricks on a 2♥ lead from East and lose 3 IMPs. Partner thought I underbid this. I think my 3♠ via 1N correct. Or does my rebid change on his bid of 3♦? Should my partner have bid 4♣ after my 3♠ to show his singleton and given me the chance to bid on to slam or stop in game? [/hv]

 

Any and all help appreciated.

The problem I see is that if you remove both your K and replace them with 2s you would bid the same way. For better results it is imperative that you find calls that help partner discriminate between those two possible holdings.

[gurgistan]

Playing 2/1, make the 1NT! forcing 1 Rnd and planning to jump to 3S over a minimum rebid by partner in order to show your 3 card limit raise.

 

But after the GF SJS by partner, 3S is one of the weakest rebids and could be as few as 2 cards Sp.

 

Standard for most ( but maybe not most here on the Forums ) is a 4S-jump to show your 3 card support with limit raise values -- ie. a hand that would have jumped to 3S over a minimum rebid such as 2C/2D/2H.

Thanks to everyone for helping.

 

I choose to comment on the quoted post as it best pertains to my situation.

 

I am new to 2/1. I am from a ACOL then SA/SAYC background. I have been playing 2/1 since early July.

 

I did not understand the 3♦ rebid by opener. I thought it showed either points or shape. So I just rebid as normal. When partner bid game I thought he was minimum with 5-5 in spades and diamonds.

 

OneFerBRID you show what 3♠ would have been correct over. If opener had rebid 2♠ I would have put us in 4♠. Which would have been correct yes?

 

This is the first time I have ever had a hand that is 1N/3M over a 1M opener.

 

My understanding of 2/1 comes from a series of articles Eric Rodwell wrote for better bridge.

 

It is obvious I have much to learn.

 

Thank you and everyone else for their help.

[neilkaz]

I have to wonder if South was asleep holding a maximum 3 card limit raise after his partner made a game forcing jump shift to 3♦? At least in the way I play 2/1 and my understanding of standard 2/1 this jump shift is 100% GF.

 

So after that and regardless of what he thinks (as we see there's not complete agreement as to what is standard after a jump shift) South should see good slam possibilities. Yes, 4333 is not good and their could often be a trump loser, however, AT9 in opener's 2nd suit is useful and it looks like we have about 31 HCP combined so South needs to continue after 4♠.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[ONEferBRID]

Aquaman writes:

Someone who plays constructive raises suggested a while back that the jump to 4S be the non-constructive raise after a JS.

This is essentially out of Max Hardy's 2/1 GF book ( p 85, yellow paperback ).

He uses 3M ( Spades here) to show the 3 card limit raise and 4M for the minimum raise and no further interest. ( He said it was an application of the principle of fast arrival in GF auctions) .

As I mentioned earlier, most do it the other way around these days.

And yes, there is merit in 3M being an either/or bid with previously discussed follow-ups .... as mentioned by Aquaman.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

And I use 3H! as a relay to 3S so Responder can describe other holdings.

With the relay, Responder has TWO ways to make 3NT, 3C, 4D, 4H and 4S bids--

direct and indirect( after the relay)--with different meanings for each.

 

Here is just one example:

1S - 1NTF

3D - 4D = direct bid shows just Diam support, no interest in Sp

 

whereas:

1S - 1NTF

3D! - 3H!

3S! - 4D! = indirect bid shows 4+Diam AND 3 cards Spades ! ( how sweet is that ! )

[wank]

I did not understand the 3♦ rebid by opener. I thought it showed either points or shape. So I just rebid as normal. When partner bid game I thought he was minimum with 5-5 in spades and diamonds.

This is the key to your errant understanding. Jump rebidding in a new suit is a natural game force, so must always have sufficient values to force to game opposite a minimum response (assume 6 points) so roughly 18 or 19+ points. You can't make a jump rebid on some 5-5 14 count.

 

Even walrusesque point counting will then tell you you're in the slam zone with 12 opposite 18+ and a known fit.

 

BTW in occasional circumstances where opener needs to make a game force but doesn't have a convenient suit to bid, he might engineer one by forcing to game in a 3 or even 2 card suit, so it's best not to get over excited about raising his 2nd suit.

[ONEferBRID]

 

 

BTW in occasional circumstances where opener needs to make a game force but doesn't have a convenient suit to bid, he might engineer one by forcing to game in a 3 or even 2 card suit, so it's best not to get over excited about raising his 2nd suit.

I think the engineered ( "may be artificial") jump-shift ought to just be Clubs ( 1M - 1NTF, 3C! ).   Also, if artificial, the implication is that the Major is extra length. Clubs leaves more room for "sorting out" later.

 

Thus, the 3D SJS should be natural.

[gwnn]

In standard bidding, assuming you open 1NT with a 5 card major

 

1♠-1NT

 

pass=11-14 balanced (5332)

2♣=11-17 points 5+ spades and 4+ clubs

2♦=11-17 points 5+ spades and 4+ diamonds

2♥=11-17 points 5+ spades and 4+ hearts

2♠=11-14 points 6+ spades

2N=17-19 points, generally 5332

3♣=18-22 points, game forcing, 5+ spades and 4+ clubs

3♦=18-22 points, game forcing, 5+ spades and 4+ diamonds

3♥=18-22 points, game forcing, 5+ spades and 4+ hearts

3♠=15-17 points, 6+ spades, could be less points if more/very good spades

3NT=18-22 points, 6 good spades, relatively balanced

4♣=18+ points, 7+ good spades, short clubs

4♦=18+ points, 7+ good spades, short diamonds

4♥=18+ points, 7+ good spades, short hearts (BEWARE some play this as 6-5 or better in the majors!!!)

4♠=7+ good spades, relatively unbalanced, unclear what range (depends on your agreement really)

 

if you don't open 1NT with a 5cM then you need to make 2NT a little wider, say 16-19.

 

there are a few questions, like what do you do with a 6-4 (I always rebid the 4 card suit), and what do you do with say 19 points and 6 spades and not NT-suitable (most people jump into a 3 card suit).

[TylerE]

Are self-splinters really standard these days? I've always played the 4 level jumps as strong distrbutional hands.

[gwnn]

not sure! I was deliberately somewhat controversial.

[ONEferBRID]

Are self-splinters really standard these days? I've always played the 4 level jumps as strong distrbutional hands.

If you are talking about over a 1NT! response, yes... and it is not new.

 

1M - 1NT!

3m = forcing

 

1M - 1NT!

4m! = jump over a forcing bid; self-splinter for M

[peachy]

 

 

BTW in occasional circumstances where opener needs to make a game force but doesn't have a convenient suit to bid, he might engineer one by forcing to game in a 3 or even 2 card suit, so it's best not to get over excited about raising his 2nd suit.

I think the engineered ( "may be artificial") jump-shift ought to just be Clubs ( 1M - 1NTF, 3C! ).   Also, if artificial, the implication is that the Major is extra length. Clubs leaves more room for "sorting out" later.

 

Thus, the 3D SJS should be natural.

For you, fine, if you have that agreement.

For me, I jump shift in the suit where I have some goods if I don't have a 4-card suit to jumpshift.

[peachy]

1S-1NT

3D-4S = 3-card limit raise

 

1S-1NT

3D-3S = 2-card spades. All 3-card spade hands would have raised directly.

If you play constructive raises, it can be weak hand and 3-card raise, but not for me, thank you. Or when playing constructive raises, you might agree that 4S is the weak hand with three card support.

 

Whatever your agreements, it is of great value for responder to describe his hand and not make the same bid with 3-card limit raise and with weak non-fitting hands. If responder has some control rich limit raise with maybe secondary diamond honors or support, 3S is right then also, with the decision to continue on when opener bids 4S.

 

Had the auction been 1H-1S-3D-3H, the 3H bid is less defined than after responder has made a 1NTF response. 3H could be anywhere from xx hearts and weak, to a 4-card support and slam search.

[whereagles]

To some people (you won't find many) 3♠ shows 3 cards and invitational values, there you are ok, but obviously north didn't think that way.

This. If you're not sure how N interprets 3♠, you have to move on over 4♠.

 

Heck, you probably have enough to move on, even if pard understands 3♠ for what you have, lol.