Action over a weak two

[MickyB]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=stxxxhxxdacaqt9xx]133|100|Scoring: MP

2S on your right, passed around to partner who protects with a double.[/hv]

[effervesce]

2NT lebensohl to 3C then 3NT seems about right.

[Fluffy]

I am happy with just 3 clubs.

[Cyberyeti]

3♣ - the better way of bidding clubs, given that I'm limited by the failure to overcall, this is a nice hand.

 

I'm not going to hang partner for protecting which he will do on some pretty poor hands with a singleton spade, although to be fair, x, Axxx, xxxx, KJxx would seem to make 5C unless they lead a trump at trick 1.

[gnasher]

If I knew partner had a singleton spade I'd be happy to insist on game. The problem is that he's quite likely to have some hand with a low doubleton spade, which will give them two top winners and several chances to play trumps.

[cherdanno]

I would bid 4♣. Given that I passed earlier, I think this describes my hand fairly well. I don't think 3♣ does this hand justice.

 

Btw, Andy - I am not sure I get the nuance of "quite likely" right. I would have thought it describes something that is more likely than not to happen - but it seems to me partner is more likely to have a singleton than a doubleton. Or are you so much used to RHO having a 5-card suit for his weak two?

[Cyberyeti]

If I knew partner had a singleton spade I'd be happy to insist on game. The problem is that he's quite likely to have some hand with a low doubleton spade, which will give them two top winners and several chances to play trumps.

If he has two spades he won't have a pile, and game may be making anyway.

 

xx, AKxx, xxx, KJxx is fine for 5C and will also probably make 3N as AKQJxx doesn't open 2 a lot of the time so spades are likely to be blocked.

 

We tend to pass some pretty big penalty doubles in second seat and would expect partner to reopen some really bad hands with one or no spades with a double, hence my caution.

 

More of a concern is x, QJxx, KQJx, KJxx which just has 3 off the top in clubs an no stop for 3N.

[gnasher]

Btw, Andy - I am not sure I get the nuance of "quite likely" right. I would have thought it describes something that is more likely than not to happen - but it seems to me partner is more likely to have a singleton than a doubleton. Or are you so much used to RHO having a 5-card suit for his weak two?

I think it means that too, and I think it was an overstatement. I was thinking that if they had an eight-card spade fit containing all the honours LHO might have raised, but given the vulnerability that seems unlikely.

[gnasher]

If he has two spades he won't have a pile, and game may be making anyway.

 

xx, AKxx, xxx, KJxx is fine for 5C

True, but xx AKxx KJxx xxx is not. Give him something in between those two extremes, like xx Axxx Kxxx KJx, and 5♣ is still fairly poor.

 

and will also probably make 3N as AKQJxx doesn't open 2 a lot of the time so spades are likely to be blocked.

I don't see how that helps, unless you have some way to identify that this is the spade layout.

[Phil]

I think this is a routine overcall at any form of scoring.

 

Would bid 4♣ now.

[aguahombre]

I think this is a routine overcall at any form of scoring.

 

Would bid 4♣ now.

I guess it is a style thing. IMHO, a direct overcall seriously overstates the values when we "know" CHO will stretch to reopen with short spades and we have leben to show a serious 3 club advance.

 

This is in context, though --- not everyone plays Leben (non-Leben, in this case) as heavy as we do after a balance. 3C is within range (edit: defined as a minimum opening bid).

[jdonn]

4♣ now, 3♣ is almost LOL to me, it's an 8 count with any 5 card suit, not a 10 count with a great 6 card suit.

[gwnn]

3♣ first round. yay, we want to bid our suits, yada yada

[peachy]

I might have overcalled 3C directly.

Now, we have to forget about playing in NT. Choice is between

3C -[with Lebensohl, promises 8+ HCP and 5+ clubs but which was not good enough for a direct overcall] and 4C- [shows a great hand and long suit]

[bluecalm]

Clear direct 3♣ for me.

Now it's difficult.

I think bidding 2NT and then 3NT should show GF hand with 4 of other major (here hearts) and stopper in their suit; at least that would be the case if we are not passed hand. I've never bothered to change the agreements for passed hand.

 

Anyway, 5♣ now seems right assuming partner is not crazy when it comes to reopening.

If I know he reopens light I would go with 4♣ feeling it's slight underbid (we could have had: xxxx x A QJTxxxx for that for example).

[Pict]

3C - natural and values.

 

I didn't bid first time, so I do now.

[ONEferBRID]

I think bidding 2NT and then 3NT should show GF hand with 4 of other major (here hearts) and stopper in their suit; at least that would be the case if we are not passed hand. I've never bothered to change the agreements for passed hand.

 

Bluecalm is right about the suggested ( and widely accepted) Lebensohl action which here would incorrectly show 4 cards Hts ( slow-shows Stayman for the other Major ... and 3NT "always" indicates a stop in the weak-2 Major ).

 

Thus, the direct 3NT would indicate a stop in Sp and direct-denies Stayman...... not that that is the best bid. If I didn't make an immediate 3C overcall earlier, I'd make a direct 3C call now.

[655321]

4♣

[Cascade]

5♣

[Cyberyeti]

This thread has got me wondering:

 

Just how good a hand with a big holding in the weak 2 opener's suit will people pass ?

 

And the corrollary - just how bad a hand with short spades are people prepared to protect with ?

 

I seem to be out of step here, as lots of people seem to be bidding up waaaay beyond where I'd want to be if partner had a really bad hand to protect my 18 count with 6 spades which I'd pass, but maybe other people don't.

[gwnn]

18 count with 6 spades is not very likely, whether or not you make a penalty pass with it should not really matter in balancing position's choice of action, I mean if you suddenly change from passing as much as 17 points with 6-3-3-1 to passing as much as 18 points, it should not really change your tendency to protect with 1444 from 10 points to 9 points or so. Much more important is the normal case, i.e. partner and preemptor's partner both have a weak no trump, give or take a queen, and whether we should be looking for a fit on the 3 level.

[MickyB]

I thought 3♣ first time quite an overbid, and 3♣ second time a big underbid. I tried 2NT then 3NT, which led to 5♣ making when oppo tried to cash two spades and a heart went away on the ♦K.

[gwnn]

It's an overbid but at least you bid your suit. BTW what do you play 2NT then 3NT as?

[whereagles]

3♣ as well, though I might have bid that the round before :)

[Cyberyeti]

18 count with 6 spades is not very likely, whether or not you make a penalty pass with it should not really matter in balancing position's choice of action, I mean if you suddenly change from passing as much as 17 points with 6-3-3-1 to passing as much as 18 points, it should not really change your tendency to protect with 1444 from 10 points to 9 points or so. Much more important is the normal case, i.e. partner and preemptor's partner both have a weak no trump, give or take a queen, and whether we should be looking for a fit on the 3 level.

I'd protect an 0454 0 count in 4th seat, partner is marked with a biggish hand and a spade stack given the lack of a raise or invite, that's my point, if I have 1 or no spades, there is virtually no hand on which I won't protect. Occasionally I'm wrong, but it's worked well so far on balance.

 

That said, I feel that while this hand is actually quite a good shape, I feel there is no hand with 6 clubs too good for 3C that didn't overcall initially. I would show an 8 count "the bad way" through Lebensohl to a protective double.