Do you find 7S?

[Free]

This one our opponents had on a club evening, and they stopped in 4♠ after a misunderstanding. However, nobody found the grand. Can you?

 

[hv=d=n&n=skqj643hada52ca74&s=sat752hj753dkqc92]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

We would probably bid it as follows:

1♠ - 3♣! (5+♠ ; 10-13 BAL 3+♠)

3♥! - 3♠! (SI with shortness ; relay)

4♥! - 4NT (singleton ♥ ; RKC)

5♣ - 5♦ (1/4 ; ♠Q?)

6♠ - 7♠? (♠Q without Kings ; ♦Axx+???)

The question at 6♠ is if opener has ♦Axx or longer, or if it's Ax (singleton A is impossible as opener would've shown singleton ♦ instead of ♥ with 2 stiff Aces, or shown a second suit if it's good enough). We don't know, we only know opener has 5+♠ from KQ, singleton ♥ and 3 Aces. Chance is big North has at least 3♦ so I think we should bid the grand.

[the hog]

This one our opponents had on a club evening, and they stopped in 4♠ after a misunderstanding.  However, nobody found the grand.  Can you?

 

Dealer: North Vul: ???? Scoring: IMP

♠ KQJ643 ♥ A ♦ A52 ♣ A74 ♠ AT752 ♥ J753 ♦ KQ ♣ 92

 

We would probably bid it as follows:

1♠ - 3♣! (5+♠ ; 10-13 BAL 3+♠)

3♥! - 3♠! (SI with shortness ; relay)

4♥! - 4NT (singleton ♥ ; RKC)

5♣ - 5♦ (1/4 ; ♠Q?)

6♠ - 7♠? (♠Q without Kings ; ♦Axx+???)

The question at 6♠ is if opener has ♦Axx or longer, or if it's Ax (singleton A is impossible as opener would've shown singleton ♦ instead of ♥ with 2 stiff Aces, or shown a second suit if it's good enough).  We don't know, we only know opener has 5+♠ from KQ, singleton ♥ and 3 Aces.  Chance is big North has at least 3♦ so I think we should bid the grand.

1C 1H +ve with S

1S 1N both Ms

2C 3C 5422

3D 3S 6 AKQ controls

4C 4H ctrl in S not H * see below

4S 5C crl in D not C

5D 5H No 2nd ctrl in S

5S 5N No 2nd ctrl in H

6C 6H Second ctr in D, but not C

7S

 

 

* Alternatively, if you use a different method of denial cue bidding you can save some steps

4C 4S All 6 controls contained in suits 1 and 3, where 1 = longest, 2 = 2nd

longest, and with 2-2 shapes step 3 = higher ranking

7S Responder must have A of S and KQ of Ds

Trivial with a relay system

[Free]

After control ♠ and ♦, not in ♥ and ♣, you already know partner has ♦KQ and ♠A (6 AKQ). Your auction is way too long :)

[the hog]

Playing Polish Club

 

1C 1S

2D 2S.....5 card M weak

2N 3S.....5S, 4H

3NT 4H.....5-4-2-2

4N 5D....1 or 4 KC

5N 6H.....5N = Ask in Ds, 5H = ask in H, 5S = to play

 

After 5NT, 6C = 3rd ctr, 6D = K, 6H = KQ, so now again you can bid 7S

 

Easy with Polish Club.

[the hog]

After control ♠ and ♦, not in ♥ and ♣, you already know partner has ♦KQ and ♠A (6 AKQ).  Your auction is way too long  :)

So what? I like relaying. Its good practice and it keeps the opponents thinking. Anyway, see the second method of DCB.

 

All methods are much better than "Chance is big North has at least 3♦ so I think we should bid the grand." And if he doesn't have 3 Ds?

[Free]

Playing Polish Club

 

1C 1S

2D 2S.....5 card M weak

2N 3S.....5S, 4H

3NT 4H.....5-4-2-2

4N 5D....1 or 4 KC

5N 6H.....5N = Ask in Ds, 5H = ask in H, 5S = to play

 

After 5NT, 6C = 3rd ctr, 6D = K, 6H = KQ, so now again you can bid 7S

 

Easy with Polish Club.

After strong ♣, relays and AKQ points, it should indeed be easy. This is an easy hand with MOSCITO, very similar to your first auction.

 

The auction in PC, sorry, but this is a joke right? You ask in ♦, great, but why not in ♣? If responder has Axxxx-Jxxx-xx-KQ you won't bid grand unless you ask about ♣. This is a clear double dummy auction which I don't buy, I hope you realise this yourself.

[the hog]

Playing Polish Club

 

1C  1S

2D   2S.....5 card M weak

2N   3S.....5S, 4H

3NT 4H.....5-4-2-2

4N   5D....1 or 4 KC

5N   6H.....5N = Ask in Ds, 5H = ask in H, 5S = to play

 

After 5NT, 6C = 3rd ctr, 6D = K, 6H = KQ, so now again you can bid 7S

 

Easy with Polish Club.

After strong ♣, relays and AKQ points, it should indeed be easy. This is an easy hand with MOSCITO, very similar to your first auction.

 

The auction in PC, sorry, but this is a joke right? You ask in ♦, great, but why not in ♣? If responder has Axxxx-Jxxx-xx-KQ you won't bid grand unless you ask about ♣. This is a clear double dummy auction which I don't buy, I hope you realise this yourself.

What you appear not to realise is that if resp shows nowt in Ds you can still ask in Cs and you have the room to do so. So I guess your comment was a joke, right?

[gwnn]

I will just take my 60+% that 1460 is worth in just about every club in the universe...

[Rossoneri]

I will just take my 60+% that 1460 is worth in just about every club in the universe...

Same. I'll readily admit I won't find 7S.

[gnasher]

I will just take my 60+% that 1460 is worth in just about every club in the universe...

And I'll take my 13 IMPs.

[gwnn]

Good point :)

[Free]

Playing Polish Club

 

1C  1S

2D   2S.....5 card M weak

2N   3S.....5S, 4H

3NT 4H.....5-4-2-2

4N   5D....1 or 4 KC

5N   6H.....5N = Ask in Ds, 5H = ask in H, 5S = to play

 

After 5NT, 6C = 3rd ctr, 6D = K, 6H = KQ, so now again you can bid 7S

 

Easy with Polish Club.

After strong ♣, relays and AKQ points, it should indeed be easy. This is an easy hand with MOSCITO, very similar to your first auction.

 

The auction in PC, sorry, but this is a joke right? You ask in ♦, great, but why not in ♣? If responder has Axxxx-Jxxx-xx-KQ you won't bid grand unless you ask about ♣. This is a clear double dummy auction which I don't buy, I hope you realise this yourself.

What you appear not to realise is that if resp shows nowt in Ds you can still ask in Cs and you have the room to do so. So I guess your comment was a joke, right?

So after 5NT responder will bid 6♣ while you already know there's a 3rd round control? In that case you'll have just enough space. Even if responder has both minor Kings (and nothing else) you'll still have just enough space. :)

 

How do you ask about trump Q?

 

At the club there's a pair playing strong ♣. They know at 3NT that responder has 5=4=2=2 with values in the minors. Now they use a method to set trumps which is unfamiliar to me, but anyway, they RKC with 4NT (regular RKC) and they can't find ♦Q.

[Fluffy]

Finding north's shortness and honnors is easy, but finding third diamond is just a matter or percentages, I cannot have any certanity in my system.

 

 

EDIT: Looking closer it seems like it will be north who will take control, and he has an even harder time figuring out how to deal with the clubs. Impossible for me.

[Siegmund]

Impossible for me too. I will find out the CK is missing and give up at 6S. It's a mighty strange combination, catching responder with KQ in diamonds and xx in the other, such that my Axx of diamonds not only is no diamond loser, but enables me to avoid a club loser.

 

If a relayer knew South's shape was 5-4-2-2 with SADKDQ, I guess for them it would be biddable. But I would know only that south had no singleton or void, and would certainly expect another minor loser. I would be a lot more worried about going down in six on a club lead (if South has 3+ cards in both minors) than about a miracle seven.

[ONEferBRID]

It's a mighty strange combination, catching responder with KQ in diamonds and xx in the other, such that my Axx of diamonds not only is no diamond loser, but enables me to avoid a club loser.

 

Responder is the only one able to figure out about pitching the Cl loser.

 

If Opener shows Ht-shortness after a Bergen Limit Raise, then Responder stops to think (... a novel idea ).

 

Responder takes control and is surprised to find the remaining 4 key cards--meaning partner's stiff Ht is the ACE. ( No need for the trump Q-ask with at least 10 combined Spades ).

He then asks for Kings ( edit ) and is dismayed that partner has no outside K's (the Cl King ) . But he continues thinking and figures the odds are good that partner also has at least 3 cards Diams.

 

1S     -     3D!

4H! ( splinter) - 4NT

5D ( 1 or 4 ) - 5NT ( specific K-ask )

6S ( no K's ) - 7S ( your extra trump length will be needed for the minor losers)

[the hog]

"How do you ask about trump Q?"

 

Why do I need to ask about the trump Q when I already have it?

[Free]

"How do you ask about trump Q?"

 

Why do I need to ask about the trump Q when I already have it?

Not on this hand, just a general question... :blink:

[Free]

"How do you ask about trump Q?"

 

Why do I need to ask about the trump Q when I already have it?

Not on this hand, just a general question... :rolleyes:

All of a sudden it's quiet. I just asked how you ask for trump Q after your RKC. The suit asking bids (or whatever you call them) are very useful on this hand, but I wonder if you never ask about trump Q, or if you have another way of doing this...

[whereagles]

A relay system should do it. Even if the doubleton isn't scanned twice (most methods only scan doubletons once), opener might deduce the diamond holding from the hcp count.

 

In normal methods 6 is the best I could realistically hope for.

[the hog]

"How do you ask about trump Q?"

 

Why do I need to ask about the trump Q when I already have it?

Not on this hand, just a general question... :rolleyes:

All of a sudden it's quiet. I just asked how you ask for trump Q after your RKC. The suit asking bids (or whatever you call them) are very useful on this hand, but I wonder if you never ask about trump Q, or if you have another way of doing this...

I had no idea this question was directed at me. As I am looking at the Q of trumps, I don't need to ask for it, unless to reassure myself that it is not a phantom. :angry:

 

As is usual in most KC asks if reponder shows 0-3 or 1-4, the next step, excluding the suit set as trumps, usually asks for the trump Q.

I would have been sure that a player of your vast experience would be aware of this.

[gnasher]

As is usual in most KC asks if reponder shows 0-3 or 1-4, the next step, excluding the suit set as trumps, usually asks for the trump Q.

I would have been sure that a player of your vast experience would be aware of this.

But you said

1C  1S

2D  2S.....5 card M weak

2N  3S.....5S, 4H

3NT 4H.....5-4-2-2

4N  5D....1 or 4 KC

5N  6H.....5N = Ask in Ds, 5H = ask in H, 5S = to play

[gwnn]

English is only my third language but didn't you say that

 

5N is an asking bid for diamonds and

5H is an asking bid for hearts (i.e. not for the trump queen)

 

?

 

Oh Andy Bowles also misunderstood something even though his first language is English...

[Free]

I had no idea this question was directed at me.

Since I quoted you and asked the question directly, I'd think a person like you would've figured it out. Ah well...

 

As is usual in most KC asks if reponder shows 0-3 or 1-4, the next step, excluding the suit set as trumps, usually asks for the trump Q.

I would have been sure that a player of your vast experience would be aware of this.

Usually it's step 1, yes. However you defined your 5♥ bid (= step 1) as asking in ♥, so I wondered if you never ask. Since you also have different further developments, one might be surprised...

 

In this hand you hold the Q so there's no reason to ask for it. However partner doesn't know that as far as I can tell from your auction. It's not like you can only ask about the Q if you don't hold it, the bid is defined. So it seems like 5♥ would be Q ask, then 5NT would be ask in ♥ and 6♣ would ask about ♦, right? Because in that case, you would still find grand opposite ♦KQ, but you wouldn't have enough space if responder has ♣KQ.

[gwnn]

good point by whereagles, in my relay system you needed 9 hcp to force to game and we only scanned doubletons once, so N could see grand unless S had ATxxx Jxxx Kx(KJ) Jx specifically, very unlikely hand. we were sticking to the 9hcp's pretty much always since it was a little overbid already opposite 15+ and upgrades.

[655321]

Lol such a typical The_Hog conversation.