Round 1, Board 3

[gwnn]

and what do you do if you have a 4144 13 count over 2D-p-2H-?

[cherdanno]

I think you absolutely need to be able to show a takeout of spades after (2D) (2S). 2way double may work. Maybe X=spades, 2N = takeout can work. But how can you live without a takeout double when most likely they are about to pass out 2S in their 6-2 fit?

[tgoodwinsr]

Regarding our proposal that 2D-P-2M-Dbl. is takeout of OM (and therefore penalty-oriented toward M), not takeout of M:

 

After 2D-P-2H, you could agree (as we have) that 2S is "takeout of hearts" -- that is, it doesn't imply long spades, only four. We are more or less stuck if it goes 2D-P-2S and we have a normal takeout double of spades. We have to pass, at least if near minimum for a takeout double of spades. If 2S gets passed around to No. 2, he will have to be aware of this possibility.

 

Our guiding principle is that we want to maximize chances to penalize the 2D side. We concede that this may cause problems when we should be on offense. We can only hope that we get some profits from defending (doubled) to make up for whatever losses we incur from offensive inefficiency.

[tgoodwinsr]

A detail omitted from my last post: If it does 2D-P-2S and you have a normal long-suit overcall of spades, it is reasonably safe to pass for now. If it goes all P, that means opener has spades behind you and you are well out of the bidding. Otherwise opener will convert to hearts, and you can reconsider the matter on the next round.

[Ant590]

A detail omitted from my last post: If it does 2D-P-2S and you have a normal long-suit overcall of spades, it is reasonably safe to pass for now. If it goes all P, that means opener has spades behind you and you are well out of the bidding. Otherwise opener will convert to hearts, and you can reconsider the matter on the next round.

That doesn't seem to fit in with your general aim of penalising them when it's right to do so.

 

My perspective is that a system that is geared towards penalties of what is usually a standard 2M opener is not as sound as one which is geared to taking-out into our fit(s). Of course against an assumed fit preempt like the Ekrens, a penalty oriented scheme seems prudent.

[inquiry]

When I first saw this problem hand i hated it. Why? Because i play multi and the 2♠ would never have occurred to me (in my understanding, this shows hearts and at least game invitational values).

 

But the more I looked at it, and the vulnerability, the more I thought, this will be very difficult to deal with for EAST WEST.

 

I think the 2NT bidders on EAST hand are glossing over a huge problem, in theory the 2♠ bidder has game invite values opposite a weak two, in which case 2NT is in a lot of trouble. The 3♠ bidders over 2♠ might be bidding his LHO suit (since his RHO likes hearts beter than spades in theory). Really this is a near insolvable problem, yet here, nearly everyone solved it easily. I think we should outlaw multi 2♦ opening bids for everyone but me.... :)

[Codo]

Yes but opener will never pass the other major suit doubled in real life.

... because?

[bluecalm]

I was 2NT bidder and I wouldn't duplicate this action now..

I think dbl should be t/o to spades as 2♠ will often be the final contract so we can't afford to pass those hands.

What is left is pass or 3♠. I guess passing is right choice.

[gnasher]

Yes but opener will never pass the other major suit doubled in real life.

... because?

Here are two reasons for opener not to do this:

- LHO may be about to pass the double, even though he thinks it's a takeout double. For example, on this deal LHO might have had Q109x xx KJxx Axx.

- Responder be planning to bid game opposite hearts.

 

But you're right that this might cause us problems. In my experience, though, gwnn is also right: I've never seen anyone do it.

[Ant590]

I think the 2NT bidders on EAST hand are glossing over a huge problem, in theory the 2♠ bidder has game invite values opposite a weak two, in which case 2NT is in a lot of trouble.

In my experience, only ~20% of multi players play that responder's 2♠ is invitational in hearts, the majority play that it is a preemptive raise to 3♥ (to play opposite a weak 2♠ bid), with most invites starting with a 2NT bid from responder.

[Codo]

I think the 2NT bidders on EAST hand are glossing over a huge problem, in theory the 2♠ bidder has game invite values opposite a weak two, in which case 2NT is in a lot of trouble.

In my experience, only ~20% of multi players play that responder's 2♠ is invitational in hearts, the majority play that it is a preemptive raise to 3♥ (to play opposite a weak 2♠ bid), with most invites starting with a 2NT bid from responder.

Here it is the other way round. At least 80 % play it as invitational..

[bluecalm]

Here it is the other way round. At least 80 % play it as invitational..

 

I don't know. It's split here in Poland where everybody plays multi.

Some people play it as invitational, some as preemptive+ (so you bid 2NT or side values with hearts). Some plays 2♠ as game forcing relay/ask having only 2♥ available for weak hands.

 

I don't think any option is standard. I would say about 50% of people play the first one, 40% the second one and 10% the third

[gnasher]

I don't see why 2♦-2♠ has to make any statement about strength or objectives. If opener has hearts, he can use 3♣, 3♦ and 3♥ to say how good his hand is, and leave it to responder to decide what to do.

 

Having said that, if I played a Multi I would play that 2♦-2♠ more or less demands 4♥ whenever opener has six of them. That's the best way to teach people not to play a defence that involves passing on the first round with a good hand.

[inquiry]

Hearing no complaints about the scoring, it will stand as given.

 

This hand inspired some interesting discussions, which is the point. Maybe someday, Multi will become allowed in the ACBL (yes I know it is allowed in some upper level events).

 

There will be no more multi's in future rounds... however, in challenge the champs that follow, multi will obviously be allowed.. if for no other reason to help develop good understandings of how to defend against it.