atb for missing slam

[Mbodell]

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=satxxhxdjxcakqj97&w=sjxxxxhjxxxxdxcxx&e=sxxhqtxxdkqxxxcxx&s=skqhakxdatxxxctxx]399|300|Scoring: IMP

P - 1♣ - 1♦ - 3nt

all pass[/hv]

[MFA]

3NT is a lazy bid. The hand is huge as dummy if partner is unbalanced with clubs. South should start with 2♦ and see what partner does.

 

As north I would have tried 4♣. There should be a good chance for slam with north's hand.

 

So both players are at fault imo.

[the hog]

Agree that 3NT is a poor bid. Do not agree that Sth should start with 2D as the Ds are not good enough for a strong jump.

Try

1C 1D

1S 2H

Now Nth has an easy 4C bid with that powerhouse and 7 is easy to reach.

[MFA]

Agree that 3NT is a poor bid. Do not agree that Sth should start with 2D as the Ds are not good enough for a strong jump.

Try

1C 1D

1S  2H

Now Nth has an easy 4C bid with that powerhouse and 7 is easy to reach.

I think you misread the auction. There was a 1♦ overcall.

[the hog]

Agree that 3NT is a poor bid. Do not agree that Sth should start with 2D as the Ds are not good enough for a strong jump.

Try

1C 1D

1S  2H

Now Nth has an easy 4C bid with that powerhouse and 7 is easy to reach.

I think you misread the auction. There was a 1♦ overcall.

Quite right, sorry Michael. Now I agree with your bidding.

[EricK]

I give most, if not all, the blame to North. South thinks he can make 3NT opposite what might be a weak balanced hand. North has at least 3 tricks more than he has promised. It is perfectly safe for him to make a slam try with 4♣ because even if South signs off in 4NT (not that he would with this hand, of course!), 10 tricks should be a cinch.

[nigel_k]

North should move in this example but that still leaves the problem of what South is supposed to do (other than 3NT) with extra values. For example, give North's ♣Q to South.

[ONEferBRID]

North should move in this example but that still leaves the problem of what South is supposed to do (other than 3NT) with extra values. For example, give North's ♣Q to South.

I hate to think a slam auction can be derailed by a 1D overcall.

 

What about a Neg-DBL ... THEN make a Diam cuebid ( if necessary ).

[ " The only forcing bid after a Neg-DBL is a cuebid " .

 

The DBL won't be passed and you can always come back to 3NT if nothing better develops.

 

In this case, partner will probably make a 2S-jump.

You cuebid 3D!... just to get more info from partner.

 

Now I'm not sure if partner thinking the 3D! cue agrees Sp and next makes a 3H cue ( his shortness ) ....

.... or if he takes the cuebid as asking for a Diam-stop and not agreeing Sp, and then makes a natural 4C rebid.

[peachy]

What about a Neg-DBL ... THEN make a Diam cuebid ( if necessary ).

[ " The only forcing bid after a Neg-DBL is a cuebid " .

 

The DBL won't be passed and you can always come back to 3NT if nothing better develops.

Unless you have special agreements about negative double, ie. 1C (1D) Dbl denies 4-card majors, it is foolish to neg dbl. No matter what you do later, you have misled partner about your hand at the first round of bidding and partner cannot be stopped from going after a major suit fit is he has a major suit.

 

North is the one who should move if anyone. His partner is willing to play 3NT opposite a weak NT hand. North has shape, an abundance of top tricks, and a self supporting suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

I find the 3NT bid normal with the South hand-

 

The cue promises fit, the neg. X usually showes at least 4-4 in the mayors.

South is a little strong for the bid, prime values and so on, but whatever he

will do, there will be flaws, so 3NT is a sensible choice.

If you bid around, and reveal infomation, than we would blame the bidding

around.

 

North should move, esp. because of the single heart, since diamonds may

well be stopped, but hearts could be wide open.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[peachy]

North should move, esp. because of the single heart, since diamonds may

well be stopped, but hearts could be wide open.

Wrong reason for N to move. He should not be moving out of 3NT because of fear.

[Fluffy]

I have an easy 1♠ take out bid as south, don't know what is the normal bid for standard, 3NT looks poor I pretty much prefer double althou that won't help at all since north is gonna bid spades and then south has to bid 3NT again.

 

Maybe not, what abou this?

 

1♣-X

2♠-4♣

 

is this splinter for you?

[mikeh]

I don't know that there is a lot of blame to go around here...it's more a question of East getting the credit for a very thin overcall and disrupting the auction.

 

What is S supposed to bid?

 

Negative double seems silly....it is going to be very difficult to get out of a major if partner is, say, 4=4=1=4, as one example.

 

Bidding a major is even sillier

 

Bidding 2♦, for most, is a club raise...and 10xx opposite a possible 3 card suit hardly looks like a good start. Admittedly, after the club raise, we will probably stand a good chance of being allowed to play notrump, but I don't see it as a panacea. For one thing, if partner has a decent hand with say AKxxx in clubs and an unsurprising diamond shortage, he may think that we have a no loser club fit and go seriously astray. Even if he keycards, the lack of the Queen won't bother him if he has AKxxxx...he'll be secure in our 10-11 card fit.

 

2N forcing would be good, but who plays that?

 

3N is practical...it's where we want to play opposite a typical minimum opener, and partner will have a minimum more times than not...and if he has significant extras, well.....he's allowed to bid.

 

This brings us to North....who, it turns out has extras....how significant are they?

 

He 'only' has 15 hcp, but he does bring 7 tricks to the table, and has what may well be a very useful diamond holding in context.

 

I would rather blame North than South..... I think North can reason that if S is minimum, 10 tricks will still prove as easy as 9, while if he is heavy, slam will roll. So I think N can bid...and either a quantitative 4N or a cue-bidding, invitational 4♣ would work well.

 

Of course, part of the problem is that for very sensible reasons we generally don't design our methods around strong responding hands that have their primary length in the opp's suit.

[aguahombre]

Yep, we are heading for a NT slam, if any. Why? How about If South and East trade diamonds?

 

4NT by North seems like as good a try as any.

[cloa513]

South is at fault with so many controls and strength 3NT is an underbid.

North is not at fault- what if south had

♠KJx

♥KQx

♦KQx

♣10xx

which is far more reasonable 3NT bid.

 

Should consider 2♦ cue as general force - not limiting it a powerful club fit- how do consider playing 4/4 fit of spades with

♠KQJx

♥AK

♦xxxxx

♣xx

[MFA]

I still think 3NT is very bad. It will just miss so many slams where partner has nothing special but easily enough for a good 6. Axx, xxx, x, AKxxxx or Axxx, Qx, xx, AKxxx etc. At least we should try to bid some of these.

 

Here partner should have saved us and bid over 3NT, but that is only because he has enough for a magnificient grand slam.

 

mikeh, are you really worried that partner should keycard without ♠KQ, ♥AK, ♦A and then proceed to get us too high because he expects us to have better trumps as well? That is a little too far-fetched objection to 2♦. But ok, I concede that if we are in grand slam territory, it could happen.

 

For me 3NT is just unacceptable with an ironclad übermax, strong controls, a slammy diamond holding and a partial club fit.

[mikeh]

 

mikeh, are you really worried that partner should keycard without ♠KQ, ♥AK, ♦A and then proceed to get us too high because he expects us to have better trumps as well? That is a little too far-fetched objection to 2♦. But ok, I concede that if we are in grand slam territory, it could happen.

 

For me 3NT is just unacceptable with an ironclad übermax, strong controls, a slammy diamond holding and a partial club fit.

You may well be correct...altho I can see how N might end up taking control once we show a slam-try hand, as opposed, initially, to a limiit raise or better (as most in NA play the cue...I assume this is fairly standard internationally as well). Another way the cue could lose is if S ever keycards, having supported clubs. I think most experts would show the club Queen with a holding such as AKxxxx, since they expect either partner to have it (and thus 'know' that opener has extra length/tricks) or that partner has long enough (4+) that the suit will play of no losers even when that card is missing.

 

I'm not sure how we are getting to the admittedly magnificent grand after 2♦ anyway.... is S really going to be able to show all of the heart AK, the spade KQ and the diamond Ace? Or is North ever going to describe A10xx x Jx AKQJxx?

 

I think any auction that reaches 6N will generate an adequate result in most fields.

[jdonn]

I agree with the criticisms of 3NT and blame both though I blame north more for sure. He would have missed slam opposite much less than south actually held.

[neilkaz]

Should consider 2♦ cue as general force - not limiting it a powerful club fit- how do consider playing 4/4 fit of spades with

♠KQJx

♥AK

♦xxxxx

♣xx

2♦ as a geberal force has merit, but I don't have any trouble seacrhing for a 4/4 ♠ fit with your example hand since I can start with 1♠ forcing just the same as if there'd been no O/C.

[aguahombre]

Should consider 2♦ cue as general force - not limiting it a powerful club fit- how do consider playing 4/4 fit of spades with

♠KQJx

♥AK

♦xxxxx

♣xx

2♦ as a geberal force has merit, but I don't have any trouble seacrhing for a 4/4 ♠ fit with your example hand since I can start with 1♠ forcing just the same as if there'd been no O/C.

Actually it is better, because with that much strength I would have been tempted to start out with a 1♦ response. :P

 

RHO saved me.

[mike777]

[hv=d=w&v=b&n=satxxhxdjxcakqj97&w=sjxxxxhjxxxxdxcxx&e=sxxhqtxxdkqxxxcxx&s=skqhakxdatxxxctxx]399|300|Scoring: IMP

P - 1♣ - 1♦ - 3nt

all pass[/hv]

north 40%

SOUTH 40%

 

 

RUB OF THE GREEN 20%

 

 

I see north hand as 5 loser hand or so....

 

I see south hand as 6.5 loser hand or so

 

 

so that means we have 11.5 tricks or so........

 

 

minor suit slams are just tough to bid esp. when opp bid.

 

Note east made a light overcall when vul.

[lmilne]

If you don't have a bid for strong hands without clear direction after 1♣-(1♦) (or really any strength hands, although the loss is bigger on the strong hands), it's not the system's fault - it's yours. If you have to invent bids, then that's a problem.

 

I (and many others) can simply bid 1♠ on this hand, whether it be a general force, denying a major, or something else. Without this tool available, I wouldn't even consider 3NT to be an option, to be honest. I prefer to put a bunch of hands like this in the X (calling it "negative" might be misleading!), instead of overloading the cue-bid. With the hands which your everyday player would X with (I guess 44 majors hands?) just bid 1♥.

 

cloa513 adequately expressed my opinions about 3NT, so I won't repeat them here, save to say that jumping 3 levels of bidding space with a huge hand and calling 3NT reasonable is crazy, and blaming the opponents for overcalling with a bid that doesn't deprive you of any bidding space is also crazy.

[P_Marlowe]

North should move, esp. because of the single heart, since diamonds may

well be stopped, but hearts could be wide open.

Wrong reason for N to move. He should not be moving out of 3NT because of fear.

Well, phrase it different - North knowes, that both sides will have at best

4 hearts, and that makes it likely that 5C may be as good as 3NT.

And if one is willing to play 5C (may only because of fear), I would always

try to find out, if we can make 6C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mike777]

I did assign n and south blame here but in general i really think posters are way to harsh......

 

 

Bidding slam when opp bid vul is tough..bidding minor suit slams are really hard.....

 

 

 

I think in a 64 team bermuda bowl....some will miss slam.....

[dake50]

Another bid that blabs nothing =3NT --bid what you want to try.

This time loses grand.

Does it then follow that no-blab 3NT was wrong?

 

I would always 4C with North --unusual enough (solid 6xC +SA in 4126) to risk 4NT instead of 3NT just to get slam try in.