Precision 1M - 4M in trouble

[bluecalm]

I just don't understand that first you say:

 

pass wtp. double=I want to defend doesnt make sense BTW.

 

and then you give 3 hands which all wants to defend 4♠.

What am I missing ?

[kayin801]

I just don't understand that first you say:

 

pass wtp. double=I want to defend doesnt make sense BTW.

 

and then you give 3 hands which all wants to defend 4♠.

What am I missing ?

He's saying that given your OP conditions, those are hands that he wants to double with, because he has trump tricks and likely tricks in side suits.

 

He also says that your agreement to do so doesn't make sense. Yes it sucks that we can't X with those hands if we have a different agreement of what X means, but they only rate to go down 1 or so if partner has the preemptive hand so its not a huge loss, and partner will X 4S with some defensive values that he thinks are useful and they will go for a phone number.

[bluecalm]

He's saying that given your OP conditions, those are hands that he wants to double with, because he has trump tricks and likely tricks in side suits.

 

Yeah ok. I was asking about hands he would double with assuming his favorite agreements, not the ones I gave in OP.

I just want to understand what kind of hands are good dbl's assuming you have the best agreements there.

[kayin801]

He's saying that given your OP conditions, those are hands that he wants to double with, because he has trump tricks and likely tricks in side suits.

 

Yeah ok. I was asking about hands he would double with assuming his favorite agreements, not the ones I gave in OP.

I just want to understand what kind of hands are good dbl's assuming you have the best agreements there.

Something like x, AKxxxx, KJ10xx, x maybe, stuff that might defend well if partner has HCP in the blacks and fewer hearts, so our heart honors might cash

[the hog]

pass wtp. double=I want to defend doesnt make sense BTW.

 

Ok, I get it. So what's some example hands you would double with if the hand from OP doesn't qualify ?

 

You have a problem created by your system

 

Obviously I have a problem, this is why I am posting seeking for advice.

I don't get why people are pointing this out all the time I mention those 1M - 4M auctions. Obviously we will have some problems, obviously they will have hard time too. Obviously I think our problems are smaller than theirs. Got it ?

Yes I "Got" your point of view. However I and many others strongly disagree. Further you did post this, so you should have expected comments about methods many of us think are inferior.

[655321]

Yes I "Got" your point of view. However I and many others strongly disagree. Further you did post this, so you should have expected comments about methods many of us think are inferior.

I think most people agree that playing opener's double as 'let's defend' is not a good idea.

 

That wasn't your complaint though, you thought that responder shouldn't be raising with preemptive hands as well as 2344 13 counts. I think it is wrong to say that 'many others' and 'many of us' disagree with raising with a wide range of hands - after all that is one of the big strengths of playing limited openings.

[bluecalm]

Hi 655321, what about giving me some example hands you would double with in this situation so I can finally understand what kind of double you guys play here ?

 

To Hog: have you actually played this method yourself and have seen the results it yields or you just don't like it because it looks stupid to you ?

[the hog]

Hi 655321, what about giving me some example hands you would double with in this situation so I can finally understand what kind of double you guys play here ?

 

To Hog: have you actually played this method yourself and have seen the results it yields or you just don't like it because it looks stupid to you ?

Played it many years ago when I played precision. After running into problems of when to doulbe and when not to and of a couple of missed slams, we decided it was better to show construcive raises and to leave 1x 4x to hands where slam was practically impossible.

[gwnn]

bluecalm,

 

Any hand that would like to bid 5H normally in SAYC but is uncomfortable doing so opposite precision 4H bid. Say in SAYC you have for responder

 

90% 5+ hearts, 0-7 points

10% 4 hearts, 4-8 points (and some awesome shape)

 

In your or other people's system it would be

30% 5+ hearts 0-7

30% 5+ hearts 8-12

20% 4 hearts, 10-14

20% 3 hearts, 12-14

 

Obviously there are hands that you'd like to bid 5H on opposite a SAYC 4H bid but not opposite the latter probabilities, because there is a higher chance they go down and there might be a lower chance to make. With these hands you double. "Partner if you have a SAYC raise, bid 5H, if you don't, then don't". This makes perfect sense to me and I don't know what is unclear to you.

 

Opener can be 5-5 or 6331 or 6421 or so. Not too much shape because with that you can still bid 5H.

[dake50]

An expectable 1H opener.

Have 5xH, 2-2 DT, no S-trick.

Won't partner expect this hand?

 

Could have S:Kxx +CAK +DA --that suggests defend =X.

Or 6-7xH +4xC +S-void --that goes 5H.

[bluecalm]

Obviously there are hands that you'd like to bid 5H on opposite a SAYC 4H bid but not opposite the latter probabilities, because there is a higher chance they go down and there might be a lower chance to make. With these hands you double. "Partner if you have a SAYC raise, bid 5H, if you don't, then don't". This makes perfect sense to me and I don't know what is unclear to you.

 

Everything is clear, thanks.

[gwnn]

He's saying that given your OP conditions, those are hands that he wants to double with, because he has trump tricks and likely tricks in side suits.

 

He also says that your agreement to do so doesn't make sense. Yes it sucks that we can't X with those hands if we have a different agreement of what X means, but they only rate to go down 1 or so if partner has the preemptive hand so its not a huge loss, and partner will X 4S with some defensive values that he thinks are useful and they will go for a phone number.

yay, you are also my forum hero now.