Don't negative doubles show 4 in the other major

[jdonn]

1. QJxxx - QTxxx AJx, r/w, partner deals

1♥ (2♣) X (P) 2♦ (P) ?

I know most will probably disagree with the negative double but I ask you to accept it. You are playing precision with pretty light openings and decide you don't want to risk a 3♥ bid from partner. But now what?

 

2. xx AT8xx KQJx xx, w/r, partner deals

2♣ (2♠) X (P) 3♠ (X) ?

2♣ is 11-15 with 6+ clubs. What do you do over RHO's double, and if you pass what do you do over 3NT by partner next round? Also what would you have done over 3♠ if RHO had passed instead of doubling?

[hanp]

1) I understand the double. I would raise to 3D. Game is possible if partner has some extras but probably not that good if partner has a minimum without extra diamond length.

 

2) I would pass and bid 4H over 3NT.

[awm]

1. I would bid 3♦. Game is possible but far from sure given the opening style. Other options might be 2♠ (which sounds like a better spade suit and might reach some silly spots), 2NT (but 5♦ is a more likely game than 3NT, and 3♦ is certainly a better partial than 2NT), or forcing game (which I think is something of an overbid opposite a possibly-light opening with slow spade cards).

 

2. Without the double of 3♠, I would try 4♥. Obviously I can't bid 3NT and this seems like the only way to reach a possible 5-3 heart fit (presumably if I bid something else like 4♣, partner won't introduce hearts now on three). Hopefully partner will pull to 5♣ if he has running clubs and singleton or small doubleton heart. With the double, I like pass because 4♥ sounds like a better suit (i.e. a suit that might play opposite a small doubleton); I can try 4♥ later over partner's likely 4♣ bid.

[hanp]

Hey, same answers as Adam who was second in the bidding contest. I feel pretty good about that.

[jdonn]

Anyone worried partner has just 3 diamonds on the first, maybe even with a somewhat light opener?

[hanp]

It could be, but I think that 3D usually makes. If partner is 3541 we'll often have good play for game. Or if partner is 5-5. I think 3D is good.

[awm]

Anyone worried partner has just 3 diamonds on the first, maybe even with a somewhat light opener?

It's possible that partner has some 2533 or whatever and bids 2♦. However:

 

(1) We still have at least an eight card diamond fit.

(2) Partner might've rebid hearts rather than introduce a 3-card suit. The inference is that partner's heart suit is not very good, which is actually great for us!

(3) One really bad case is where we have an eight-card spade fit also (like partner is 3532) but if we're going to game partner might try 3♠ on the way.

(4) Partner rates to have 4+♦ most of the time in any case, I don't want to go overboard catering to the possible three-card suit and get myself a lousy result opposite the more common hand with real diamonds.

[Cascade]

Anyone worried partner has just 3 diamonds on the first, maybe even with a somewhat light opener?

He could but I am not worried about it.

[gnasher]

Anyone worried partner has just 3 diamonds on the first, maybe even with a somewhat light opener?

I don't think that's a good enough reason to pass: if you're going to bid enough of the good games, you have to accept that opposite a poorly fitting minimum you'll sometimes go down at the three level.

 

How likely is it that we'll make game, though? Kx AKxxx KJxx xx is a good hand, but not good enough. That's a 14-count with four diamonds, and all of partner's high cards working, including a fitting jack. I think it's fairly optimisitc to hope for 5♦ to make.

 

It seems to me that the most likely game is in spades: Kxx AQxxx KJx xx, for example, is a reasonable game. The chance of a spade fit has improved now that we know he doesn't have six hearts, so I think 2♠ is right. If he passes that with a singleton trump, we may still scramble home; if he raises, we can bid 4♠ with confidence.

[whereagles]

Anyone worried partner has just 3 diamonds on the first, maybe even with a somewhat light opener?

I am. Which is why I'm not so sure I'd raise 2♦ to 3. Certainly so in a good day, but possibly not in zia's "heat 3" (i.e. not inspired).

 

As for the other hand, I'd just bid 4♣, as I have no stopper. Not too worried if pard passes this, because it seems like this is one of those 24-25 hcp boards where you can't make a thing (3 tricks out on 5♣, 6 tricks out in 3NT).

[gwnn]

I've never heard of rebidding a 3 card minor over a negative double, is it really so common/is it really a good idea?

[whereagles]

I've never heard of rebidding a 3 card minor over a negative double, is it really so common/is it really a good idea?

maybe it is with, say,

 

Kxx

QJxxx

AJx

xx

[pooltuna]

Anyone worried partner has just 3 diamonds on the first, maybe even with a somewhat light opener?

Me! Which is why I think you are constrained to 3 choices 2♠,2NT, &3♦. The problem with them is bidding either ♦ or ♠ probably makes reaching 3NT if it is the right spot damned hard. And what makes me think that 2NT is the right call even if it doesn't rate to play as well as ♦ or ♠ as a part score

[gnasher]

What would you do with Kxx K10xxx xxx AQ ?

[pooltuna]

What would you do with Kxx K10xxx xxx AQ ?

you mean after partner opened 1♥ I would bid the hand entirely differently. Since you didn't quote anybody and your post appeared immediately after mine not really sure who you are addressing

[hanp]

Andy and I don't agree with you at all in this thread. I consider 2S to be way out there, it will go down far more often than 3D and if partner has 3541 distribution you can get to 4S over 3D about as easily as over 2S.

 

Also I don't agree that partner has denied 6 hearts, partner can certainly bid 2D with 6 hearts and 4 diamonds. Not with any such hand, but certainly with some.

 

Finally, with Kx AKxxx KJxx xx we won't make 5D but 3NT has chances. If the play starts with club club, we need RHO to have KQ-6th of clubs and one of the two side aces, not unreasonable at all on the auction. 4S is also better than 5D. Partner also knows that we need 11 tricks for 5D.

[inquiry]

Hey, same answers as Adam who was second in the bidding contest. I feel pretty good about that.

he is not second yet... first only 14 boards are scored in that list, second several people on the list were tied, he might be tied for first, or tied for third. BTW, I have finished the scoring all 16 boards now but I am not saying where anyone else ends up until all pairs are finished. And even then, when the hands are posted in the forum, I suspect there might be some score changes if I overlooked something. No doubt people with simulation ability are already cranking out their arguments. :)

[gnasher]

What would you do with Kxx K10xxx xxx AQ ?

you mean after partner opened 1♥ I would bid the hand entirely differently. Since you didn't quote anybody and your post appeared immediately after mine not really sure who you are addressing

Like almost all of my posts, that was addressed to anybody who possesses the strength of will to read it and the mental capacity to understand it.

 

I was asking what people would do with this hand after

  1♥ (2♣) dbl (pass)

and the question was provoked by two posts discussing the circumstances under which opener would bid a three-card minor in reply to a negative double of 2♣.

[the hog]

What would you do with Kxx K10xxx xxx AQ ?

you mean after partner opened 1♥ I would bid the hand entirely differently. Since you didn't quote anybody and your post appeared immediately after mine not really sure who you are addressing

Like almost all of my posts, that was addressed to anybody who possesses the strength of will to read it and the mental capacity to understand it.

 

I was asking what people would do with this hand after

  1♥ (2♣) dbl (pass)

and the question was provoked by two posts discussing the circumstances under which opener would bid a three-card minor in reply to a negative double of 2♣.

Well, I would bid 2D and hate it.