Does anyone play 1-2-3-Stop anymore?

[H_KARLUK]

I play uncontested those :

1M>2M (8-10 3 cards raise)

3M ( bid game if you're maximum)

As i cannot open 1N with a 5 cards M suit i have to play :

1M>2M

2N(15-17 bal.)

But i think i noticed some interesting thing when i play GIB abt that. Will try to find where i noted.

[the hog]

Yes, Ron does play it as a balanced game invite.

What does 2NT show over 1M-2M?

To be honest, I can't really remember, though I have a suspicion it asks for shortness.

One of the points rdk makes is that if you play some form of Bergen or Lott raise, you will be at the 3 level anyway in 5-4 fits. It is only the 6-3 hand that would raise to the 3 level. He comments, among other things, that 6-3 shapes do not play as well as 5-4 shapes and that often the opps would not have balanced anyway.

Maybe just quote from the book or article, if you don't remember. What book or what article?

Someone else who only half reads or comprehends posts.

[gnasher]

I've never heard it called this, but yes, I play 1M-3M;3M as a signoff. You're not obliged to bid it on unsuitable hands.

 

Obviously the value of this treatment is less if your openings are sound or your raises are constructive. There is a significant set of hands that would be opened at the one-level in England but at the two level in North America, so I would expect to hold more hands where I wanted to bid 3M preemptively than some of the other posters in this thread.

 

Regarding various other comments:

 

- The main benefit is against good players. A weak pair is less likely to balance against 2M, and less likely to judge well if they do.

 

- There is at least one good reason for doing this even when holding spades. At matchpoints, if you pass and then bid 3♠ after they compete, they will be better placed to double you.

 

But when one side is quoting the LAW and the other side is quoting a book by Ron Klinger, I really feel bad about supporting either.

:)

[gwnn]

unwarranted paranoia.

 

i play it as 6 cards here and more than minimum, partner is welcome to bid game over it.

[Fluffy]

playing 1♠-2♠-3♠ as balanced game try makes sense, that way you can play 1♠-2♠-2NT as a relay for shortness or whatever, for people like me who have slam invitational hands after opening 1♠ at least.

[hanp]

- There is at least one good reason for doing this even when holding spades. At matchpoints, if you pass and then bid 3♠ after they compete, they will be better placed to double you.

Agree with this.

[Bbradley62]

Cool. So, the answer to my question is yes, some people do still play 123Stop. Thanks for the feedback.

[MickyB]

There is at least one good reason for doing this even when holding spades. At matchpoints, if you pass and then bid 3♠ after they compete, they will be better placed to double you.

RHO may be able to indicate a lead also.

[Pict]

I recall (or misrecall) Zia and Forrester on a cruise ship, in a TV programme, having a slightly acrimonious disagreement about this sequence.

 

I have never bid 3S as an invite, but I would respond to it as an invite if I heard it.

[hanp]

There is at least one good reason for doing this even when holding spades.  At matchpoints, if you pass and then bid 3♠ after they compete, they will be better placed to double you.

RHO may be able to indicate a lead also.

Thanks for the credit, I'll take it!

[peachy]

In the olden days [i have played for decades, the last two decades in ACBL],

1M-2M-3M was some sort of invite. To my knowledge, nobody that I have met plays it that way nowadays. The popularity of using this as a blocking bid to avoid opp's balance and opp's opportubnity to find out if they should double, became mainstream with the emergence of the Law of Total Tricks. It all should be taken with a grain of salt, but there is some validity to using it that way.

[aguahombre]

I have never bid 3S as an invite, but I would respond to it as an invite if I heard it.

If you ever ask yourself to be your partner, decline in favor of someone who is more compatible.

[ggwhiz]

1-2-3 stop is most prevalent in competition, ie. 1M-p-2M-3X (or double) -3M but I still thought 1-2-3 as game invite was the old fashioned route.

 

Everybody balances aggressively these days. Apply some fear and loathing to them.

[junyi_zhu]

If I open 1M and partner raises to 2M, I can make any of the four bids between 2M and 3M to invite game. Sometimes, especially with a minimum (and possibly a sixth trump), I just want to make it harder for the opponents to compete, and I like bidding 3M to accomplish this. Is this another of my 1980s anachronisms?

Even against weak players, it's unnecessary IMO. First, both have passed; Second, they may balance for a very small amount of time; Third, if they are really fans to balance, you can always trap with some pretty good hands once in a while to make big penalties against them at 3 level. Fourth, if they balance, they may play in the wrong suit and you may want to actually defend it. So bidding 3M only achieves when they balance and they can find their best fit which you don't want to defend, even at that time, you can still bid 3S if you don't want to defend.

[awm]

Even against weak players, it's unnecessary IMO. First, both have passed; Second, they may balance for a very small amount of time; Third, if they are really fans to balance, you can always trap with some pretty good hands once in a while to make big penalties against them at 3 level. Fourth, if they balance, they may play in the wrong suit and you may want to actually defend it. So bidding 3M only achieves when they balance and they can find their best fit which you don't want to defend, even at that time, you can still bid 3S if you don't want to defend.

Well, the tradeoffs are that:

 

By balancing opponents may find a good lead against 3♠ when they'd otherwise be guessing.

 

Opponents may find a way to compete to the four-level after their balance.

 

Opponents have an easier time doubling 3♠ after the balance pushes you there.

 

------> With all this said, I'm not a big fan of this style. Certainly it can sometimes help you to bid to the three-level when you're not forced there (for the reasons above), but I think opponents sell to two of a major just often enough (and 3M goes down just often enough) that I'm better off waiting to be pushed rather than bidding up to 3M on my own. While the point has been made that you have a lot of other ways to try for game in a major, the big advantage of 1M-2M-3M as a game try is that it doesn't disclose much information to the opponents on defense.

[junyi_zhu]

Even against weak players, it's unnecessary IMO. First, both have passed; Second, they may balance for a very small amount of time; Third, if they are really fans to balance, you can always trap with some pretty good hands once in a while to make big penalties against them at 3 level. Fourth, if they balance, they may play in the wrong suit and you may want to actually defend it. So bidding 3M only achieves when they balance and they can find their best fit which you don't want to defend, even at that time, you can still bid 3S if you  don't want to defend.

Well, the tradeoffs are that:

 

By balancing opponents may find a good lead against 3♠ when they'd otherwise be guessing.

 

Opponents may find a way to compete to the four-level after their balance.

 

Opponents have an easier time doubling 3♠ after the balance pushes you there.

 

------> With all this said, I'm not a big fan of this style. Certainly it can sometimes help you to bid to the three-level when you're not forced there (for the reasons above), but I think opponents sell to two of a major just often enough (and 3M goes down just often enough) that I'm better off waiting to be pushed rather than bidding up to 3M on my own. While the point has been made that you have a lot of other ways to try for game in a major, the big advantage of 1M-2M-3M as a game try is that it doesn't disclose much information to the opponents on defense.

Well, those are minor concerns.

Lead directing value is never a big concern here, because the frequency of the balance is rather low. Penalty doubles are also not important when you hold a 9 card fit playing a partial. If they can find a playable spot at 4th level, they should probably act earlier. 1M 2M 3M as an invitation is indeed not bad IMO, because often, you don't want to bid a game very clearly.

[rogerclee]

I also want to add that when you are 6133 or something, they do not automatically go to your stiff! Sometimes they play in your 3-bagger, and now you usually will just want to defend.

[mike777]

I am much more worried opp have a game...cold game rather than they push us one level too high....

 

sure 1-2-3

 

I got a zillion other game invites..

 

In my case I am really worried that opp have game...cold game....

 

in hearts very very often...

in sp less often. as other mention...you may buy it in 2 level

 

but ya in general I try to bid to Lawfull level as quik as possible....

 

Note it seems to me that really good players really try and stop you from playing at 2 level when we got a 9 card fit.

[MickyB]

There is at least one good reason for doing this even when holding spades.  At matchpoints, if you pass and then bid 3♠ after they compete, they will be better placed to double you.

RHO may be able to indicate a lead also.

Thanks for the credit, I'll take it!

Lol. I was too lazy to get the quote from Gnasher's post, didn't realise it would get attributed to anyone. Sorry Andy.

 

As for 1-2-3 being a game-invite being old-fashioned - In the UK it is the opposite, traditionally this sequence was preemptive but now some play it as an invite of some description.

[peachy]

There is at least one good reason for doing this even when holding spades.  At matchpoints, if you pass and then bid 3♠ after they compete, they will be better placed to double you.

RHO may be able to indicate a lead also.

Thanks for the credit, I'll take it!

Lol. I was too lazy to get the quote from Gnasher's post, didn't realise it would get attributed to anyone. Sorry Andy.

 

As for 1-2-3 being a game-invite being old-fashioned - In the UK it is the opposite, traditionally this sequence was preemptive but now some play it as an invite of some description.

Then the trend is the opposite in England then B)