Distributional hand over opponent's preempt

[655321]

4♦, if I was not allowed to do this I would double.

[gnasher]

I would be interested in your thoughts on this ugly hand.

I don't have many - that's partly why I was asking questions - but here is one:

 

Suppose that we doubled, planning to:

- Raise 3M to 4M

- Pass 3NT

- Convert 4♣ to 4♦, belatedly showing the majors

 

Then we'd still get the upside of double - getting to 3NT or defending 3♦x when it's right - but we wouldn't have to play 4♣ opposite a (32)35 shape.

 

There are two problems with this idea:

- This hand probably isn't good enough.

- Everybody thinks that dbl-4♣-4♦ should be a slam try, because of all the 24-counts they get dealt.

[Free]

I was also looking for Dbl, don't like the alternatives. We have to do 'something' because partner may pass with a good hand and some ♦s.

[gwnn]

woo hoo bid our shape yay 4♦

[Codo]

I like Mikes reasoning for 4 ♦, but I will still deliver my partner a little bid more for this bid. I would pass and hate it.

[hanp]

I dealt some hands yesterday and came to the conclusion that I like 4D better. There are some hands where we get overboard but there are more hands where partner has a 3-card major and we miss (the right) game after doubling or bidding 3S.

[ArtK78]

Here are the North-South hands:

 

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sj9xxhaxdkxxckqxx&s=sakxxxhqjxxxdxcxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

It seems that any action by South other than a pass in direct seat over 3♦ will get NS to game in spades. But if South passes over 3♦ North has a problem with Kxx of diamonds and heart shortness.

 

I chose 3♠ over 3♦ and that worked well on this hand. It did not occur to me to bid 4♦ on such a light hand, but I have been convinced by many posters that 4♦ is probably the best action to take on the hand.

 

We won a nonvul game swing on the hand, as our opps did not find 4♠ at the other table.

 

By the way, RHO had QJTxxxx of diamonds and out. Both minor suit aces and the ♥K (along with QTx of spades) were in LHO's hand.

[whereagles]

I think the overbid of 4♦ is more or less mandatory. Unless pard has a decent 15 or so, he won't bid over 3♦ given his expected 3-4 diamonds, so we have to bid now or risk missing a cold game.

[H_KARLUK]

4♦ (Mich cb for Majors)

[JLOGIC]

I don't hate 3S FWIW, I would go 4D>3S>X though.

[WellSpyder]

I wish I had read this post yesterday. Last night I faced this decision:[hv=d=w&v=n&s=s107542haj952da98c]133|100|Scoring: IMP

3♦ P P ?[/hv]

Are the considerations much the same as in the OP? Certainly my worries over eg bidding 4♦ over a 4♣ response from partner if I doubled were similar to those expressed by Gnasher. In the end I decided that I didn't want to miss a Vul game and that it was worth getting to the right suit even if at the wrong level, so I risked 4♦, but without much conviction...

[gwnn]

no, Axx is different from x, I'd pass your hand.

[hanp]

I'd definitely pass that one.

[JLOGIC]

I'd bid 4D on that hand

[aguahombre]

Yeh, Wellspyder's situation is very different. Balancing chair, not to worry about CHO going to the moon.

[mikeh]

I wish I had read this post yesterday.  Last night I faced this decision:

Dealer: West Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ 107542 ♥ AJ952 ♦ A98 ♣ [space]

3♦ P P ?

Are the considerations much the same as in the OP? Certainly my worries over eg bidding 4♦ over a 4♣ response from partner if I doubled were similar to those expressed by Gnasher. In the end I decided that I didn't want to miss a Vul game and that it was worth getting to the right suit even if at the wrong level, so I risked 4♦, but without much conviction...

I wouldn't bid on this hand at all. One very important difference, in terms of the urgency behind bidding now, is that on the OP, there was a strong likelihood that partner, even with the strength we hope him to have, will have a hand on which he has no safe action. We are, there, short in diamonds and relatively strong in both majors. This means that he may be relatively weak in one or both majors and relatively strong/long in diamonds....thus causing him to pass.

 

Here, we have unexpected length in diamonds, and weak majors, both of which will increase the chances that he can bid...admittedly, we may not be out of the woods if he doubles, but I think we can safely bid 4♦ and then take another call... we will almost always have 5 level safety in one of our majors if he has a balancing double, and we can't afford to give up on slam.

 

Another problem with an immediate bid here is that partner should never play us for suits as weak as these....he is far too likely to drive us overboard. At least on the OP hand, we had enough strength in our suits that if he went nuts with 3 major suit honours, we'd have some hope of surviving...not here....Even AK/K leaves us with major suit losers whereas on the OP Q/AK solidified our suits.

[WellSpyder]

Another problem with an immediate bid here is that partner should never play us for suits as weak as these....he is far too likely to drive us overboard.

I agree this is a danger. Maybe, as aguahombre says, having passed once partner isn't going to the moon, but we could certainly end up uncomfortably high in the stratosphere.

 

I don't think hoping partner may be able to double if he has a suitable hand is the answer, though - maybe it's not that clear from the diagram that we are in the pass-out seat?

[JLOGIC]

Extremely surprised by all the people saying clear pass with that hand... if partner has a 4 card major we don't need much at all to make a game.

 

Edit: Mike, I assume you didn't see that we were in passout seat.

[ArtK78]

I wish I had read this post yesterday.  Last night I faced this decision:

Dealer: West Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ 107542 ♥ AJ952 ♦ A98 ♣ [space]

3♦ P P ?

Are the considerations much the same as in the OP? Certainly my worries over eg bidding 4♦ over a 4♣ response from partner if I doubled were similar to those expressed by Gnasher. In the end I decided that I didn't want to miss a Vul game and that it was worth getting to the right suit even if at the wrong level, so I risked 4♦, but without much conviction...

Anyone for 3♥ in passout? Surely it cannot be right to pass, but do you really want to commit this hand to game by bidding 4♦ or to a potentially very weak 5-3 spade fit?

[hanp]

I also didn't see we were in the passout seat. Isn't that alertable?

[whereagles]

Extremely surprised by all the people saying clear pass with that hand... if partner has a 4 card major we don't need much at all to make a game.

 

Edit: Mike, I assume you didn't see that we were in passout seat.

Pass out or no pass out, our diamond length means pard can't have much hcp. And even if he has like 3 diamonds, then RHO has none and breaks won't be kind.

 

I think there's a decent chance RHO is lurking in the bushes, so I pass too. Won't be surprised if dbl wins big, though.

[mikeh]

I also didn't see we were in the passout seat. Isn't that alertable?

It should be...since I didn't see it!

 

Having seen it, I go back and bid 4♦ :)

[WellSpyder]

Extremely surprised by all the people saying clear pass with that hand... if partner has a 4 card major we don't need much at all to make a game.

The good news is that partner did indeed have a 4-card major (♠QJ63♥8♦Q107♣QJ762). The bad news is that there was just a bit too much to do to make 4♠ opposite our ♠107542♥AJ952♦A98♣-, especially when trumps were 4-0! At least responder forgot to double with ♠AK98♥Q1074♦-♣AK1053!

 

I'm not sure what this proves, but whereagles was certainly right to worry about RHO lurking in the bushes even if she decided not to come out when the opportunity arose.