Damn preempts..

[Keeper1]

[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sha9876dak1087c863]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

1C (4s) ?

 

Your turn.

 

RHO is world class, if it matters

[Free]

Are you serious? Dbl! (takeout ofcourse)

[bluecalm]

4NT and 5♦ after 5♣ makes sense if that means 2suiter.

I am not sure if that's better than dbl though.

[jjbrr]

The problem with 4NT is it's difficult to play in ♣ which could easily be the right strain.

[hanp]

What Jeremy says is true, and that's only one of the problems of 4NT. Another problem is that your suits are not very good, and that your quick tricks are good on defensive. If the best possible contract is 4SX, you are unlikely to reach it if you bid 4NT.

 

Against the double is that partner will often pass 4SX, also on some hands where you do better playing at the five level or higher. And sometimes the opponents will bid 5S (they are favorable after all) when partner would have sat for 4SX.

 

I would still double, we'll be well placed if partner bids and if partner passes then I think it is a bit more often right than wrong. I think it would be easier at IMPs where +300 or +500 when we have a game is less of a loss than -200 when we could have been +300.

[bluecalm]

Yeah I am not convinced to 4NT either. Just saying is one option worth considering. I agree with your arguments against it. It for sure works sometimes though but I agree taht dbl probably works better/more often.

[JLOGIC]

Double, it won't always work (mainly because partner will pass it way too often), but anything else is way too speculative. I'd rather defend 4S X too often than play at the 5 level and go down a significant amount of the time (and often in the wrong suit).

[jdonn]

Agree with double. I agree with most previous points, plus Axxxx is not what I want one of my two choices of suits to be.

[mikeh]

I think this is one of those hands on which you suspect that bidding (4N) may well get you to a good spot....but that you'd be guessing....do you, for instance, pass 5♣? Obviously best opposite minimum type 3=2=2=6 and so on....or raise...obviously best oppsite extra value 3=2=2=6 etc, or bid 5♦...obviously best opposite a variety of hands with a red suit fit.

 

Doubling will get you a plus when he passes, and you are dreaming if you think he is pulling. While I suspect that a study of expert bridge with this sequence will show a lot of pulls, that will be because the double is usually based on some modest spade length, increasing the chances that opener is very short. Here, yes....he might pull...but if he does, LHO is probably bidding anyway.

 

So double may not lead to the best possible result but it may be the best result possible (credit to S.J. (Skid) Simon)

[hanp]

I think if you bid 4NT then you have an obvious pull of 5C.

[JLOGIC]

I think if you bid 4NT then you have an obvious pull of 5C.

I don't think it's as clear as you think. With 2 more clubs than diamonds should partner be preferring diamonds or clubs?

 

If partner has shown 3 more clubs than diamonds, it's automatic to pass 5C. Sure he could be 4414, but way more likely he has 5 clubs and 2 hearts, or 6 clubs. Even if he has 5 clubs and 3 hearts, clubs is probably better. It's possible he has 4H 5C also, but on average I think pass is a huge winner.

 

If you expect partner to prefer clubs to diamonds with a 2 card disparity (which I think is wrong), then bidding gains on 4324 and 3424 as well, so it becomes closer, but it's still not clear imo.

[helene_t]

What is p supposed to do over 4NT with a balanced hand? Bid 4♦ if he is 3-3 or 4-3 in the red suits, and bid 5♣ with a doubleton in a red suit? I think with 3=4=2=4 I would bid 5♣ but with 4=4=2=3 I would not know what to do. Maybe pass ....

[JLOGIC]

What is p supposed to do over 4NT with a balanced hand? Bid 4♦ if he is 3-3 or 4-3 in the red suits, and bid 5♣ with a doubleton in a red suit? I think with 3=4=2=4 I would bid 5♣ but with 4=4=2=3 I would not know what to do. Maybe pass ....

Pass? :( Your partner can have 7-5 in the minors! (or more likely of course, 6-4!)

[JLOGIC]

If you expect partner to prefer clubs to diamonds with a 2 card disparity (which I think is wrong),

I guess with some shapes with 2 card disparity, partner must bid clubs, like 4135 since you might have 6 hearts and 4 clubs. But opposite that shape it's not clear which minor will be best, probably clubs though I think?

 

I think having 0463 is also definitely in play though (planning to pass a minor).

 

Edit: Also, 4324 and 3424 should maybe chance clubs anyways because if you have the reds you can end in hearts, whereas if you bid diamonds you end in diamonds opposite the reds. And if partner has 6-4 in the minors clubs will often (usually) be right anyways. Paying off to partner having 3 more diamonds than clubs sometimes is probably worth it to play the right red suit the times partner has the reds, and the likely right minor the times partner has 2 card discrepancy (which is much more likely). Also if partner has hearts + clubs you will get to hearts which is also right.

 

So guess I was wrong!

[hanp]

I think partner should assume you have the minors and bid accordingly. That means you shouldn't usually bid 4NT with 6 hearts and 4 clubs. If partner has to assume the worst possible scenario then he;s bidding 5C far too much.

 

You won't often bid 4NT with 1 card difference or with 3 cards difference so I guess with 2 cards difference partner should usually bid 5D but with good clubs I think 5C is possible. Going over some possible shapes I guess Justin and Mike are right. Of course 5D would often work out better when partner has hearts, but 5D is almost never better than 5C.

[jdonn]

I think if you bid 4NT you must pass 5♣. My dumb partner would be 2227 every time.

[hanp]

OK I thought I had figured out that partner was bidding on the assumption that we have the minors but apparently partner should bid 5C even with 4144 distribution?

 

I don't think that's right, he'll be bidding 5C pretty much whenever he has 5 of them in that style, and when he's 4144 or 4414. Only when he's balanced or has short spades (and how likely is that!) will he be bidding 5D.

[JLOGIC]

Yet another problem with opening 1C with 4144! I believe it is just fundamentally much sounder to open 1D when you have a stiff, sorry hanp!

[hanp]

Sorry can't do, I'm Dutch now.

[jdonn]

4144 opening 1♣? :(

[JLOGIC]

OK I thought I had figured out that partner was bidding on the assumption that we have the minors but apparently partner should bid 5C even with 4144 distribution?

 

I don't think that's right, he'll be bidding 5C pretty much whenever he has 5 of them in that style, and when he's 4144 or 4414. Only when he's balanced or has short spades (and how likely is that!) will he be bidding 5D.

Always bidding 5C when you have 5 is not that bad when your partner has H+C or D+C or H+D!

[bluecalm]

Yet another problem with opening 1C with 4144! I believe it is just fundamentally much sounder to open 1D when you have a stiff, sorry hanp!

 

It's difficult to talk about soundness when considering standard system but for what it's worth top Italian pairs always open 1♣ having 4-4 in the minors. It can't be that bad then...

[hanp]

4144 opening 1♣? :)

American bridge player with an open mind? Where, where? :(

[helene_t]

Sorry can't do, I'm Dutch now.

he, most of the IMP panel opens 1♦, I think being Dutch is a bad excuse.

[JLOGIC]

Yet another problem with opening 1C with 4144! I believe it is just fundamentally much sounder to open 1D when you have a stiff, sorry hanp!

 

It's difficult to talk about soundness when considering standard system but for what it's worth top Italian pairs always open 1♣ having 4-4 in the minors. It can't be that bad then...

Some top dutch players do too (hence HANP).

 

Just because they do it does not make it fundamentally sound!

 

I don't think I called it "bad" and I don't think it matters much at all in the long run. Part of it depends on your system, if you have much better methods over 1C than 1D (which you probably should, eg transfers), then it becomes much more attractive.