Bidding Practice

[hanp]

Assuming pairs, bidding with JLOGIC.

 

AKQxx

KJxx

Qxxx

-

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H

3C - 3D

3S - ??

 

2H was forcing to game, no canape openings. Your call?

[Hanoi5]

5♣ Exclusion KC!

[Fluffy]

4 spades, 5 diamonds its only 9 tricks. if we ruff too many clubs we don't have the entries to win 5th spade,

 

♥KJ doesn't fit very well in this hand I wanna go slow. 3NT

[Codo]

Anything depends on his 3 ♠ bid. If this shows a lack of heart control, I would bid 3 NT too. However, I think that Justin patterns out and shows a 2155 or 2065 hand. I belive that with 1255 or 0355 or similar he had rebid 3 ♥ after 3 ♦.

 

He needs xx,x,AKxxx,Akxxx to make slam close to a claim.

If he has a "spoiled" value in hearts this will even be fine, because this would create a heart trick.

 

Give him xx,Q,Akxxx,xxxxx and they will never beat our slam. Unluckily, xx,Q,KJxxx,AKQJx makes slam nearly impossible, so how to proceed?

 

4 ♣ with a void in partners suit is out.

4 ♥ as a cuebid- partner will usually answer 5 ♣ and I have won nothing.

4 NT?

 

Okay, 5 ♣, after my 3 ♦ bid partner will hopefully understand it despite the fact that we never discussed it.

[robertb]

I'm with Codo on what partner has - to me it sure sounds like partner is 2155 and is just trying to find the safest game.

 

I think that if partner had first round control of hearts he'd have bid it. He didn't; so that's bad news.

 

On the other hand I think that partner might well have chosen to cud-bid clubs with AK or AQ before showing secondary spades.

 

I think slam is pretty good. I don't want my opponents to KNOW they ought to lead hearts, so I don't want to bid 5 clubs. I think I'll just try 6 diamonds now.

[hanp]

I also think that partner is almost 100% to be exactly 2155. The idea that partner is just trying to find the safest game is pretty alien to me. Partner is just describing his hand and knows too little about ours to know how high we should end up.

 

If 5C is exclusion then that's problematic since partner will bid 5H with 1 keycard (0314 responses to exclusion).

 

With no good slam tries available (partner will almost certainly bid 5C if we bid 4D), it seems like we will have to pick the best contract right now.

 

I don't want my opponents to KNOW they ought to lead hearts

 

Don't worry about the opponents, this is practice for the BBF bidding contest!

[gnasher]

A lot of people are doing a lot of bidding. Don't your partners ever pick up xx x KJxxx AKxxx?

 

3NT might go down either because they get their hearts going or because they take some club tricks. It's also not that likely to make 10 tricks unless partner has extras. If partner does have extras, we might have a diamond slam, so I'm happy to go past 3NT.

 

Having said that, 4♠ is quite tempting, this being matchpoints. +620 is likely to be a good score. If we're going to play there I have to bid it now - partner isn't going to rebid his doubleton. I bid 4♠.

[gwnn]

4. The scoring will be by estimated international matchpoints, on a scale from 0 to 12, with 10 usually being the highest score obtained. A few remarkable contracts might be awarded an 11 or 12.

[mikeh]

While I agree that partner is patterning out, and is almost assuredly 2=1=5=5, that doesn't solve anything for us.

 

It's frustrating to know so much and yet have no idea of whether we even have 5 level safety....picture Jx x Kxxxx AKQxx, and 3N may be the last makeable game (ok, 4N looks ok as well).

 

Otoh, something like Jx x AKxxx xxxxx (and he has much more than this, of course) makes 6♦ very good.

 

I don't see any clear path. I am not cuebidding a void in clubs. I am not using exclusion, for the reason han pointed out.

 

My choices appear to be 3N, or 4♦.

 

4♦ almost certainly endplays partner into 5♣ or 5♦, neither of which help much.

 

So I go with 3N. It may feel like an underbid, but I have already expressed doubt about 3N, while stressing primary diamond support. This means that partner has rights. It doesn't mean that he'll always guess right when exercising those rights, but 3N is, odd tho it may sound, the most flexible call I have right now.

[jdonn]

I bid 4♦. If he bids 4♥ then I'm happy to use keycard*. If he bids 4♠ then I'll be fine taking my chances there. If he bids 5♣ I'm bidding 6♦ as my hand seems suitable. If he bids 5♦ then I'm happy to pass.

 

I don't like 3NT. Most of the time it's down we make 5♦, and most of the time it makes we make 6♦, I think. Of course there are no guarantees I am right about that, my dummy partners always have singleton heart queen.

 

Btw the comment I least understand is that partner will just auto 5♣**. If his hand is bad for slam he should bid 5♦. If his hand is good for slam he should often bid 4♥ even though he has already "shown" a singleton to leave keycard in the picture. I think some people worry too much about specific controls in specific suits on these auctions at the expense of bidding in a way that facilitates communicating the most useful information.

 

* Duh I mean bid 4♠, who typed keycard under my name :rolleyes:

 

** The comment I even less understand is bidding exclusion. You end up in slam off two aces!

[Apollo81]

Exclusion.

[pooltuna]

failure to bid 3NT ought to make 4♣ a clear slam try and qbid

[mikeh]

I bid 4♦. If he bids 4♥ then I'm happy to use keycard*. If he bids 4♠ then I'll be fine taking my chances there. If he bids 5♣ I'm bidding 6♦ as my hand seems suitable. If he bids 5♦ then I'm happy to pass.

 

I don't like 3NT. Most of the time it's down we make 5♦, and most of the time it makes we make 6♦, I think. Of course there are no guarantees I am right about that, my dummy partners always have singleton heart queen.

 

Btw the comment I least understand is that partner will just auto 5♣**. If his hand is bad for slam he should bid 5♦. If his hand is good for slam he should often bid 4♥ even though he has already "shown" a singleton to leave keycard in the picture. I think some people worry too much about specific controls in specific suits on these auctions at the expense of bidding in a way that facilitates communicating the most useful information.

 

* Duh I mean bid 4♠, who typed keycard under my name :rolleyes:

 

** The comment I even less understand is bidding exclusion. You end up in slam off two aces!

I think you have the inferences from 5♣ and 5♦, over your 4♦ (to which I had given strong consideration) reversed or at least muddied.

 

Club cards are of very little value to me. Wouldn't he bid 5♣ with something like Jx Q AJxxx AKQxx? Surely that hand is way too strong to sign off with? And while slam may make...it's a bad contract and won't score that well in a bidding contest.

 

While he'll bid 5♦ with Jx x AKJxx QJxxx

 

I'm not saying that these are typical hands...I'm really only saying that I don't think that you can expect to be any further ahead after 4♦, on many, many possible hands. You are still going to be guessing

[hanp]

4. The scoring will be by estimated international matchpoints, on a scale from 0 to 12, with 10 usually being the highest score obtained. A few remarkable contracts might be awarded an 11 or 12.

Matchpoints...

Ha!

[JLOGIC]

Seems like an utter crap shoot.

 

If I have good diamonds and bad clubs slam is gin (gnasher suggested KJxxx AKxxx...how about Jx x AKxxx KJxxx?).

 

Even if not trying for slam, it isn't clear to me which game of 4S or 3N will be better. Intuitively if they're not going to lead clubs, 4S feels better, but we know a lot might depend on a heart finesse etc etc.

 

I think jdonns dream of it going 4D-4S is a pipe dream, my spades are never going to be good enough to do that.

 

I would go with 4S>3N>4D but it's just a guess.

[jdonn]

I bid 4♦. If he bids 4♥ then I'm happy to use keycard*. If he bids 4♠ then I'll be fine taking my chances there. If he bids 5♣ I'm bidding 6♦ as my hand seems suitable. If he bids 5♦ then I'm happy to pass.

 

I don't like 3NT. Most of the time it's down we make 5♦, and most of the time it makes we make 6♦, I think. Of course there are no guarantees I am right about that, my dummy partners always have singleton heart queen.

 

Btw the comment I least understand is that partner will just auto 5♣**. If his hand is bad for slam he should bid 5♦. If his hand is good for slam he should often bid 4♥ even though he has already "shown" a singleton to leave keycard in the picture. I think some people worry too much about specific controls in specific suits on these auctions at the expense of bidding in a way that facilitates communicating the most useful information.

 

* Duh I mean bid 4♠, who typed keycard under my name :P

 

** The comment I even less understand is bidding exclusion. You end up in slam off two aces!

I think you have the inferences from 5♣ and 5♦, over your 4♦ (to which I had given strong consideration) reversed or at least muddied.

 

Club cards are of very little value to me. Wouldn't he bid 5♣ with something like Jx Q AJxxx AKQxx? Surely that hand is way too strong to sign off with? And while slam may make...it's a bad contract and won't score that well in a bidding contest.

 

While he'll bid 5♦ with Jx x AKJxx QJxxx

 

I'm not saying that these are typical hands...I'm really only saying that I don't think that you can expect to be any further ahead after 4♦, on many, many possible hands. You are still going to be guessing

The "wrong hands" aren't always missing the diamond ten you know. Anyway what's wrong with increasing my accuracy even if it doesn't approach 100%? My point about 5♦ is he will sign off there if his hand is very minimal, like Jx x Axxxx KQTxx.

 

Still I understand I might get to slam off 2 keycards. Who knows maybe 4♣ is best even though it's usually frowned upon to cuebid shortness in partner's suit. We get to make a slam try or two without bypassing 5♦.

[gszeszycki]

Assuming pairs, bidding with JLOGIC.

 

AKQxx

KJxx

Qxxx

-

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H

3C - 3D

3S - ??

 

2H was forcing to game, no canape openings. Your call?

 

WHO's in charge here is the question. Fluffy properly recognizes 3n as a slow down bid but now lets explore WHY.

 

1d normal

1s normal

2c normal

2h fsf to game

3c no 3 card spade support no heart stopper (*except in the rare circumstance we

--- are extremely distributional and bidding 3c more important than bidding NT)

----continuing to bid our distribution.

3d setting trumps (in case its needed) and giving p a chance to bid 3h to show

----a partial heart stop for nt by bidding 3h (in case we have something like

----AKxxx Qx Kxxx Qx)==if opener were to bid 3n now it would mean the 3c bid

----was needed to show very extreme distribution. Something like

----*void A KJxxxx KQxxxx

3s high degee of probability showing 2155 but maybe 1255 possibly even 0355 and

----could just be marking time to see what responder wants to do. If opener holds

----say void 743 AKxxx KQxxx would you really want to bypass 3N or bid 3N?

3N GIVING UP CAPTAINCY and also helping to clarify a lot of our previous bidding

----1. we have hearts stopped so our 2h bid was primarily interest in spades or

-------merely marking time until we could bid 3d to set trumps.

----2. The only reason to take time to set dia as trumps (when 3n was a viable

-------contract) was to make a mild slam try in dia. with a hand similar to say

-------AJxxx KQJ Qxxx x we would not waste time with 3d we would bid 3n.

----3. It is important to realize opener knows none of this until we bid 3N. It is now

-------up to opener to realize our mild slam try was based on club shortness and

-------probably secondary heart stoppers KQ KJ( If we had someting like A AK or

-------AK A in the majors we would not be signing off in 3n). If we are to progress

-------to slam it is up to opener (who's hand power and power location is unknown

-------to us. Let the player looking at their cards decide what to do:))))

Always remember what partner does not bid is just as important as what they bid.

[junyi_zhu]

Assuming pairs, bidding with JLOGIC.

 

AKQxx

KJxx

Qxxx

-

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H

3C - 3D

3S - ??

 

2H was forcing to game, no canape openings. Your call?

A typical failure of 4th suit forcing. After so many rounds of bidding, the opener's range is from 10 to 18 HCP.

[JLOGIC]

Assuming pairs, bidding with JLOGIC.

 

AKQxx

KJxx

Qxxx

-

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H

3C - 3D

3S - ??

 

2H was forcing to game, no canape openings. Your call?

A typical failure of 4th suit forcing. After so many rounds of bidding, the opener's range is from 10 to 18 HCP.

Luckily partner will bid again once you've bid 3D if you now bid 3N with the top of that range (certainly 16-18, many 15s).

 

Also 10-18 seems misleading, who opens with many 10 counts holding both minors?

 

But yeah it can suck when he could have 11-14.

[JLOGIC]

Also, I am quite confident this partner is just showing a doubleton spade with this bidding.

 

With short spades and long hearts I would always bid 3N or 3H.

[mikeh]

Assuming pairs, bidding with JLOGIC.

 

AKQxx

KJxx

Qxxx

-

 

1D - 1S

2C - 2H

3C - 3D

3S - ??

 

2H was forcing to game, no canape openings. Your call?

A typical failure of 4th suit forcing. After so many rounds of bidding, the opener's range is from 10 to 18 HCP.

Luckily partner will bid again once you've bid 3D if you now bid 3N with the top of that range (certainly 16-18, many 15s).

 

Also 10-18 seems misleading, who opens with many 10 counts holding both minors?

 

But yeah it can suck when he could have 11-14.

This is precisely why I think 3N is better than 4♦ (or 4♠).

 

4♦ will make us guess over the virtually inevitable 5♣ or 5♦ from partner, and we still know relatively little...4♦ is such a strong slam move that he will cuebid with many unsuitable hands, and it conveys so little information that he will not cuebid with many weak but well-fitting hands.

 

3N doesn't solve all issues, but he will pull with all good hands and we now have the entire 4 level to figure out whether the hands fit well enough.

 

We will miss slams opposite good fitting minimums, but all roads carry that risk. We will be less likely to reach bad slams with lots of hcp, which 4D makes problematic.

 

I'll gladly suffer a slight increase in missed good slams to avoid elimination of reaching bad slams...including a lot of slams off the heart Ace and a trump keycard.

[gnasher]

who opens with many 10 counts holding both minors?

I do. Naturally I'd prefer to be 5-5 in the majors, but you have to make do with what you were given.

 

I agree with junyi_zhu about the problems of unlimited auctions like this. I don't know of a good solution to the problem though - if you start trying to add strength information to opener's actions, you just lose loads of space that you'll often need for finding the best game.

[JLOGIC]

Mike, I agree with you that it is more likely partner will move over 3N than 4S and get us to a good slam, and that is an advantage of bidding 3N over 4S. It's just my intuition that 4S will often be a trick better than 3N but I don't know.

 

I remember that whatever my hand was, it wasn't clear to me what the right spot was lol. Obv a ton depends on the heart honors and whether RHO has an entry and who has the spade jack etc etc.

[hanp]

Fourth suit forcing seems pretty perfect in this auction. Of course with our hand we still don't know what to do, but how often do we know partner is exactly 2155, and have we shown spades and a diamond fit in the meantime?

 

Anyway, I bid 3NT, Justin had something close to gnasher's hand and I thought 3NT was probably the best matchpoint spot but I'll leave that up to Ben.

 

I would definitely not open a 10-count with 5-5 in the minors in a bidding contest. You just know you will end up in 3NT while the top spot is 2 of a minor!