ATB, who should bid 4?

[Stephen Tu]

[hv=d=e&v=e&n=sjt7hakj653dacqj6&s=sk96h9842d92ck842]133|200|Scoring: MP[/hv]

(p)-p-(3♦)-3♥;

all pass

[whereagles]

Seems totally normal. North could have overbid and shoot at 4, South could have overbid and raise to 4... Both bids could have worked out from really good (this case) to really bad (as in, -800).

 

Sometimes preempts work.

[Codo]

As my 3 ♥ bids in this situations are stronger then the ones from typical BBF posters, it is more south fault not to raise. So I had decided different then he did. But I won't blame anyone.

[jdonn]

South, advancer. But it wasn't terrible. North could have started with double then bid 4♥ if his ace was not in diamonds and it would have been reasonable.

[JLOGIC]

Well it definitely wasn't norths fault!

 

Souths pass could have worked so I don't think it's terrible but I would never do it myself.

[quiddity]

Interesting, I would have assigned blame to North. Isn't he supposed to place partner with a balanced 7-count? Given the vulnerable diamond preempt it seems like most balanced 7-counts will give some play for game.

[pooltuna]

Well it definitely wasn't norths fault!

 

Souths pass could have worked so I don't think it's terrible but I would never do it myself.

so how does South have his cake and eat it too when he holds[hv=s=saqxxxxhxxdxxxcxx]133|100|[/hv] ?

[gwnn]

what is your point?

[P_Marlowe]

If there is blame at all, it goes to North, South has an easy Pass.

As North, I would have bid 4H, but playing MP 3H is ok, even playing IMPs.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

If I may be simplistic, north has 6 losers! A random balanced 7 count will probably not cover 3 of those losers! Overcalling 4♥ is so bad, the suit isn't even that great.

[Bbradley62]

Well it definitely wasn't norths fault!

 

Souths pass could have worked so I don't think it's terrible but I would never do it myself.

so how does South have his cake and eat it too when he holds[hv=s=saqxxxxhxxdxxxcxx]133|100|[/hv] ?

That South doesn't open 2♠?

[nigel_k]

Unlucky.

 

I wouldn't bid game with South at matchpoints though it is close. North's bidding is fine, he needs more to jump to 4♥ over 3♦.

[Fluffy]

I blame the overcall style just like Roland.

[Siegmund]

There's an awful lot of blame being given out in this thread for quite a normal auction. Not getting to game after a preempt with 22 points is not quite the end of the world. Seriously, supposing the opps are silent do you think you're always getting to 4H here? You want North to force to game with 6 losers, or South to raise with 2 covers?

 

I would be quite unhappy with a North who leapt to 4H over 3D, and quite unhappy with a South who raised 3H to 4, though that's semi-understandable if he is confident both his kings are well placed. No reason for him to think his 4th trump is worth much since he won't be doing any ruffing.

[mikeh]

There is no blame to assign. There is responsibility to assign, and that is clearly South's.

 

Those who advocate an immediate 4♥ don't (it seems) have a clue as to what 4♥ would (in NA at least) usually show. Neither the hand nor the suit are good enough.....maybe not out by much, but the combination of being weak on both fronts makes it not even close. And the idea of doubling makes me ill...this is a 3♥ overcall and the fact that it is heavy doesn't make it wrong.

 

I think S has a close decision. I know that the odds are that I would allow the conditions of contest to talk me into passing....I'd raise at imps. I wouldn't blame anyone for passing at mps, nor even white at imps...but red at imps, blame would attach.

[jdonn]

Seriously, supposing the opps are silent do you think you're always getting to 4H here?

I would be pretty embarassed to miss game in an uncontested auction!

[JLOGIC]

You want North to force to game with 6 losers, or South to raise with 2 covers?

 

No reason for him to think his 4th trump is worth much since he won't be doing any ruffing.

I don't know anything about covers but I thought a 4th trump was supposed to be counted as one?

 

You assign no value to the 4th trump because we won't be ruffing but it has value opposite basically any heart holding with partner. It eliminates a loser. If partner has AQxxx, AQxxxx, AKxxx, AKxxxx, KQxxx, KQxxxx, AJxxx, AJxxxx, Kxxxxx etc the 4th trump always has value in reducing our losers. Even opposite AKQxx 4 small is way better than 3 small.

 

Not to mention that there's no reason our doubleton diamond can't be a ruffing value sometimes, all they did was open 3D. You are acting like our hand is equal in value to K9x xxx xxx Kxxx which I think is very far off.

[eyhung]

There's an awful lot of blame being given out in this thread for quite a normal auction. Not getting to game after a preempt with 22 points is not quite the end of the world.

Not getting to game with 22 of the 34 relevant HCP and a 10-card trump fit is the end of the world in a good event. This hand shows the importance of not thinking in terms of points when hands are unbalanced. You need to think about playing tricks, fit, and honor location.

 

To borrow a phrase, talking about high-card points in an auction where there is a big fit and shape is like dancing about architecture. Kxxx xxx Kxxx xx is not even close to the same hand as Kxx xxxx xx Kxxx, but point-counters will say both are 6 HCP, 7 support point hands.

 

FWIW, my partner and I had to deal with a 1D opener and a 1-over-1 responder. Despite the unfavorable opponents showing around half the deck in "points", we bid :

 

 

      P   P
1D 1H 1S 3D* = mixed
P  4H AP

 

making 5.

[Stephen Tu]

FWIW, my partner and I had to deal with a 1D opener and a 1-over-1 responder

 

I'd argue that this is a much easier position to be in.

[eyhung]

I'm not trying to determine whether it's easier or harder to bid the game at my table or yours. (Although, some Souths might not have made a mixed raise because "I had too few points".) Saying it's okay to miss a cold game because "you don't have enough points" is like saying it's okay not to bid game because "you don't have enough heffalumps'. Last I checked, we were being scored upon how many tricks we take, not about how many heffalumps or ZARs or whatzits we had. At some point, people have to stop thinking about "points" and start thinking about tricks. The South hand can take tricks with hearts as trump. So what if it's not so good for 3NT?

[Siegmund]

You did well to show a mixed raise (and have a system and an auction where you could show same.) I'm not surprised that got you ahead of the field.

 

Yes, the 4th heart is still worth something; and a 4th trump + a doubleton somewhere is usually worth counting as a cover card; but xx in diamonds felt a lot less likely to be a useful ruff than in another suit, after there has been a diamond preempt.

 

In an uncontested auction, I would be in significant danger of missing this game if North didn't have a way to show a singleton diamond. (And in a lot of situations, we avoid showing singleton aces.)

[Stephen Tu]

In an uncontested auction I'd always expect to get to game, or really any auction where the south hand has space to raise hearts below game. North is much nearer the top of his overcalling/opening range than he is to the bottom and can easily bid game when South shows life.

 

In the actual auction, from my perspective North could easily have d6 instead of the club 6, creating a diamond loser, now you need to guess the spades (and still not have 3-0 hearts offside), and also can have a much worse hand (only 5 hearts, less high card strength etc.), and the worse hands are going to be more common than this hand. If South always raises, then you win this hand certainly, but will lose on a good fraction of North's lesser hands. Or North will have to overcall on a higher, tighter range since when he can make 3 South is raising to 4, and you lose out on a lot of chances to get 140 instead of -110/100 or -50 instead of -110 when North doesn't play South for a "useful 7 count" I was taught to assume when dealing against preempts. The hand here with the 4th trump makes it a bit more than what North should play for, but is it enough to raise? Vul at imps I certainly would have raised, non-vul maybe. But MP I think North should be overcalling on a wide enough range that I think it's questionable for South to raise.

[JLOGIC]

@Siegmund

 

I guess you are not accepting:

 

1H 2H

4H

 

as a reasonable auction. I guess part of that depends on how light you raise to 2H vs bidding 1N. Lets say you have a very wide range for 2H then, so that north cannot bid game (as many do).

 

Surely

 

1H 2H

2S 4H

 

is likely. If the range is wide then responder can accept the game try with this hand with spade help and a 4th trump. But even if you think this is too aggressive, the least aggro auction I can come up with is

 

1H 2H

2S 3C

4H

 

where responder counter game tries with the minor he has. Now opener will loveee his hand

[eyhung]

Moving the 6 of clubs to the 6 of diamonds is not as minor a change as it would seem.

 

JTx

AKJxxx

A6

QJ

 

looks pretty gross to me. Opposite a passed hand, a 3H overcall can't get much worse. So I don't think that's a very representative hand that you should be using for your argument to pass.

 

Even if partner could very well have some horrible piece of tripe that doesn't fit, I feel game is percentage. Almost any reasonable hand with 6 hearts (the above is definitely on the bottom end, with potentially no working black suit cards and the biggest side value in the enemy suit), most minimum primish hands with 5 hearts make game at least playable. And if partner has a max? You're likely cold.

 

Not every game you bid has to make. I think it's ok to reach a no-play game some of the time if, by doing so, you avoid missing a cold game more of the time. And you even have some vig : sometimes you reach a bad game, but they misdefend.

[Stephen Tu]

looks pretty gross to me. Opposite a passed hand, a 3H overcall can't get much worse. So I don't think that's a very representative hand that you should be using for your argument to pass.

 

So you are using a somewhat stronger range to overcall 3♥ than I am at MP. You get to more of the games than I do when overcaller is strong, responder is weaker (I get to some games you don't when you pass instead of overcall, responder has top of opening pass range and raises). I get more 170s/140s/-50s to beat the -110s than you do when I go ahead and overcall on the lesser hands that you pass with. At MP I feel the latter category is more frequent. Your opinion may differ. Probably 90+% hands we'd agree on, the only difference is at the boundaries of our range.