pass for penalty?

[JLOGIC]

Is it simply "always pull with stiff/void trump, leave it in with doubleton trump" at the 2 level?  Or are there hands you would still pull with a doubleton trump?

No, I would definitely pull with many/most hands that had 2 hearts. Obv a hand with 2.5+ QT I will pass happily.

 

I would also pass if i had something like AK A A for sure even with a stiff trump at these colors (we might have slam but more likely we just have +500 vs a game).

 

The point is to pass when it looks like being on defense will be best, and to pull otherwise. There are no hard and fast rules. You just imagine what type of hand partner has and act accordingly. Luckily partners hand is pretty well defined here!

 

How about if the opps are now at the 3 or 4 level, what criteria do you use for leaving it in then? Now you don't need nearly as many trumps to be fairly confident about going +, and need more tricks if you pull. Does it now go down to leave in with stiff trump, pull with void, or what?

 

What is the auction? My thinking is never "how many trumps do I have? Ok I pass/pull" My thinking is what does partner have what do they have what is the form of scoring what is the vulnerability what will work best.

 

The reason these doubles are called "do something intelligent" is because they are all different, and all based on a necessity for a bid. Again, they are defined generally by what partner doesn't have.

 

Once you get to the 3 level they are often trying to get to 3N, but again it depends on the auction. The less bids that have been made, the less defined they will be usually since there is often a need to get to 3N.

 

That said, for a recent example from the cavendish that I had the auction (playing precision if it matters):

 

1H (1S) 2C (2S)

3D (3S) p (p)

X

 

Is still quite well defined, and responder can act accordingly, even though it looks like a scary omg X.

 

My algorithm is always to think about what partner has, and then what the best bid will be based on that. For instance on this hand with AK AJ and 3244 at w/r MP with a partner who is about 4333 with about 10+ points, it is pretty obvious to pass to me.

 

What if the opps are often nuts like actual opp, weakish field, and neg doubler does have some 45xx? Pass and hope opener reopens w/ double? Is opener really supposed to take 3 calls with 3154 12 count? What if opener is 3-0-5-5?

 

I do not dispute that sometimes you will have a penalty double, and you won't be able to make it. Surely you understand it being a game of frequencies. To me this question is a more advanced form of a novice asking "but what if I have a 20 count with 5 good hearts and it goes 4H p p ?" (also an example that actually happened in the cavendish).

 

I mean yeah, it sucks to have a penalty double and not be able to make it. In general in auctions you will have hands that don't know what to do but have enough values to bid, and those hands will need to double. In general in auctions where the opps bid something you won't have a trump stack, and in general when you do your partner might be able to reopen.

 

As far as your specific example, yes partner is obviously supposed to bid with 3154 over 2H. "Taking 3 calls" is not an accurate representation of this, he opened and then he was forced to bid over a negative double and did not show extras. Then he balanced.

 

Why would you pass our 2H when you know your hand has about half the deck, and you have a stiff heart?

 

But your specific example doesn't really matter, I am conceding the point that sometimes you will have a penalty double, and sometimes partner will not reopen, in some auctions. This possibility doesn't mean playing penalty doubles in all auctions is good, even in auctions where partner has already bid 2 suits and you have bid the other.

 

Then there are situations where opps have gone a little bit crazy at favorable, preempted to 4♠, I'm say 4243 with a couple trump tricks, partner has bid hearts, I'm pretty sure he is void spade and going to bid 5 of something for the vul game bonus but go down due to the wastage, I can't double to get him to STFU since it's forward-going not penalty, and can't really expect him to reopen with double with a void either, or pass it out. How to solve those?

 

Again, what auction? Presumably you're talking about 1H (4S), or (2S) 3H (4S) or something.

 

If you have already had a chance to make a bid, presumably you bid NT or passed in which case you have a penalty double.

 

If you have not had a chance to bid then yes you are in a responsive X or negative X situation.

 

Again, yes sometimes you will have a penalty X, and sometimes partner will not reopen. Those times suck. But you must think about how often you'll have a responsive X or negative double on these hands compared to a penalty X. It is just way way way more likely that you instead have a 2344 10 count or something, and want to double and want partner to be able to bid with extreme shape.

 

Also, I don't know why you would think partner will not reopen with a spade void on those auctions. Sometimes he will have extras and be able to do so, so at least there is that. He will certainly stretch to double with a good hand and a spade void.

 

If worst comes to worst, you have to pass and partner will pass and you will beat them. Worse things have happened.

[gnasher]

camp 1:

1♠ = 3 cd sp usually, or 4 cds but the hand got worse (4333 ♥Qxx min or something)

2♠ = 4 cd sp, "I would have bid 2♠ if opps had passed and response was 1♠"

 

camp 2:

1♠ = normally 4

2♠ = extra values, "I would have jumped to 3♠ or been close to it in uncontested auction"

 

What's your estimate of the current split in adv/expert partnerships?

Everyone I know, or want to know, is in camp 1.

[JLOGIC]

BTW I think examples of high level negative/responsive doubles at your first turn are fundamentally different than examples of low level doubles after significant bidding where a fit still hasn't been found.

 

With an auction like 1H (4S) or (2S) 3H (4S), the double is basically defined as "I can stand you bidding" or some people have it defined as even more takeout oriented. I think in those auctions you're just making a decision to give up on penalty Xs when partner can't reopen (and it's not like he can always reopen with shortness at such a high level obv), in order to gain on more takeout oriented hands.

 

The argument there is just that you are winning more often than losing by playing this way (specifically when the opps get to 4S, you don't have a penalty X that often).

 

With an auction like 1D (1H) 1S (p) 2C (2H) X, I think you expect to get some good penalties with partner passing sometimes (maybe even more, far less of your doubles will be passed, but you will be able to make far more of them?) as well as improving your constructive bidding a lot in that you can explore your best spot at a lower level, and also just compete effectively in general (I mean what else can you do with a 5323 10 count?).

 

I feel like the doubles I see people complaining about a lot are the "do something intelligent" doubles at lower levels after more bidding, rather than the first kind which is just how high do you prefer to play your negative and responsive doubles.

 

IMO it is not true that you have to make random guesses over these second kind of doubles, and that you improve your bidding a lot by having them in your arsenal. With a penalty double you're still ***** outta luck like in the first kind of doubles.

[Stephen Tu]

No, I would definitely pull with many/most hands that had 2 hearts. Obv a hand with 2.5+ QT I will pass happily.

 

I would also pass if i had something like AK A A for sure even with a stiff trump at these colors (we might have slam but more likely we just have +500 vs a game).

 

The point is to pass when it looks like being on defense will be best, and to pull otherwise. There are no hard and fast rules. You just imagine what type of hand partner has and act accordingly. Luckily partners hand is pretty well defined here!

 

The thing is, I don't feel like partner's hand is so well defined, when it is only defined by negative inferences. It still feels like there is too wide a range to deal with. Here we just know 4 sp, no 5 cd minor, and anywhere from 2-5 hearts, and 10 unlimited points.

 

If opener is only leaving it in with 3+ hearts or 3+ QT, pulling with a lot of his 2 QT hands etc., it seems like you are pulling quite a bit, and not getting these extra penalties the cooperative approach is supposedly enabling you to get. You get penalties when responder has extras, AND opener's hand "looks like being on defense is best". But what if responder's hand "looks like being on defense is best", and opener's is just average, which to me is more frequent behind the overcaller, knowing the trump position? Now responder has a clear action, the top has been handed to you, but you can't convert since you still need opener to have good def. I'd rather collect these for sure, double also on some less clearcut cases and sometimes be wrong, and just play 2nt/3m/3nt on the ones where you need opener to have so much greater defense than his average hand for doubling to be right.

 

What is the auction?

Something like 1♦-2♥-dbl-3♥;p-p-dbl

Does partner have some 4333 hand with extras, probably the most common,

I want to pass? Oops, he tried this with 5-2-1-5, (I don't know why he didn't

just bid 2♠, I think that particular time his spades were quite bad), I was supposed to pull to 4 clubs on my 3-2-4-4.

 

 

I do not dispute that sometimes you will have a penalty double, and you won't be able to make it. Surely you understand it being a game of frequencies. To me this

Sure, I understand the frequency bit, it's just it's not clear to me that case

(responder has extras, opener has extra def to leave it in)

is clearly > frequency than

(responder has extra def, opener has an average opener)

 

And my perceived very wide range of doubler's possible shapes leaves me guessing. The examples you gave there's more info since your side has been able to get more bids in.

 

Then there are situations where opps have gone a little bit crazy at favorable, preempted to 4♠, I'm say 4243 with a couple trump tricks, partner has bid hearts, I'm pretty sure he is void spade and going to bid 5 of something for the vul game bonus but go down due to the wastage, I can't double to get him to STFU since it's forward-going not penalty, and can't really expect him to reopen with double with a void either, or pass it out. How to solve those?

 

Again, what auction? Presumably you're talking about 1H (4S), or (2S) 3H (4S) or something.

 

Something like 1♦-2♠-3♥-4♠;? or 1♦-1♠-2♥-4♠;?

 

I want to double for penalty (4243, spade wastage), but I can't. Partner has void spade and is likely to bid 5 something and probably go minus. It's not missing the penalty I'm worried about, it's partner bidding.

 

But you must think about how often you'll have a responsive X or negative double on these hands compared to a penalty X.

I have no problems with responsive/neg doubles as 1st action you take on the hand. I'm totally on board with that. The problem I have is with doubles AFTER both partners have shown something, either bidding/doubling, we don't seem to have any fantastic fit anywhere, it's past 3nt or our stopper is not great/non-existent, it's your 2nd/3rd chance to act and the opps are at a high level, penalizing them is often profitable, but it doesn't seem possible to convert anymore since the double is now so wide-ranging/ambiguous and you are supposed to pull so often.

 

If worst comes to worst, you have to pass and partner will pass and you will beat them. Worse things have happened.

The worst in my mind is partner BIDS and goes minus when you were clobbering them, but you couldn't double because your doubles are defined as more encouraging partner to go on rather than encouraging partner to pass.

[JLOGIC]

Well, one of your auctions:

 

1D-(2H)-X-(3H)-p-p-X

 

I don't think 5125 is a possible shape. With that shape partner should have bid 2S. Having bad ones doesn't make sense...you still want to find a 5-3 fit even if you have 65432.

 

Partner could easily have 4135 though or a lot of shapes, like I said the ones below 3N are tough because often he can't bid 3N or go past 3N. But this is out of necessity, if your X here is penalty I don't know what you do on a lot of hands. Just bid 3N without a stopper? Just go past 3N? I think playing penalty doubles here would suck for that reason, you have no bid below 3N and your partner could easily have hearts stopped (he can't bid 3N direct since you've just shown 7-8+ HCP or w/e).

 

I would not pass that double with 3244 unless I had a hand like the OP (lots of quicktricks). With a heart stopper I'd bid 3N. Partner shouldn't have a heart stopper himself or he could just bid 3N, so the main message of this double to me is "I have a good hand with no heart stopper." That auction is not similar to this one imo.

 

It is almost impossible for responder to have a penalty double on that auction though, so I don't understand the problem. Have you really ever had 4 good hearts there? That gives partner a void usually and he probably would have bid directly after you made a neg X.

 

To me this is equivalent to "sometimes they have bid to 3H on a psycho hand or I somehow have 4 good hearts anyways, but I have no penalty X..." You just pay off. This double is basically takeout/stopper ask with only 4 spades and there is not much problem with that to me. The most common number of hearts for partner is 2. Whenever you have them super outgunned and no stopper you can consider a pass with a balanced hand with good defense though.

 

As for your other auctions:

 

1D (2S) 3H (4S)

 

Double is not forward going, as a pass is forcing.

 

1D (1S) 2H (4S)

 

Now pass is not forcing, so yes double is forward going. If you have 4 spades partner is very likely to reopen double. If he has 5 card support for your minor or maybe 6-4 he might reopen 4N or 5 of your minor. Oh well. Again, how often are you going to have 4 good spades when they overcall and jump to 4? You are really worried about something that is low probability imo.

 

Since pass is not forcing, you would always want to double on hands with extra values that are too good to pass, but cannot commit to 5 of something. This seems automatic!

 

I feel like you are underestimating the amount of times you will have 4 good trumps on an auction where they typically show 9-10 trumps. Even if they go crazy a lot, a lot of times they just have it.

 

If partner is bidding over your card showing Xs too much because they're short, that means you're not supposed to double. Sometimes you just have to pass or bid 3N even when you know you have them. What you cannot do is make a X that is not penalty and hope partner passes.

 

Obviously IMO these situations are infrequent enough and manageable when they come up that it's worth it not define a lot of these doubles as penalty, but your mileage may vary heh.

[Stephen Tu]

1D (1S) 2H (4S)

 

Now pass is not forcing, so yes double is forward going. If you have 4 spades partner is very likely to reopen double

 

So partner's reopen double is takeout with a void/stiff on this auction, and also forward going? What if it is you with the blah 1354 hand, he has some 3523 or the like with defense, just wants to get the 300/500 we are entitled to? How do you tell the difference, if he is doubling on both hands with void trumps and hands with 3 trumps? Maybe they have 11-12 cd fit.

 

Or can you just no longer ever get them, they get to play 4s down 2/3 undoubled when we both have defense, can only get them if one of us has a forward going double with shortness, and the other guy can pass?

[gnasher]

1D (1S) 2H (4S)

...

So partner's reopen double is takeout with a void/stiff on this auction, and also forward going?  What if it is you with the blah 1354 hand, he has some 3523 or the like with defense, just wants to get the 300/500 we are entitled to?  How do you tell the difference, if he is doubling on both hands with void trumps and hands with 3 trumps?  Maybe they have 11-12 cd fit.

 

Or can you just no longer ever get them, they get to play 4s down 2/3 undoubled when we both have defense, can only get them if one of us has a forward going double with shortness, and the other guy can pass?

A double by either hand shows offensive values and says "I think we might make game".

 

If they play 4♠ -3 undoubled, that means that neither of us has such a hand, so neither of us thought we had a game on. If we don't have a game on, scoring +150 isn't the end of the world. It just means that the opponents did something stupid but we didn't take advantage. However, we still got the small plus score that we were entitled to when we took our cards out of the board.

 

If, instead, you play penalty-oriented doubles, you get your +500 on a partscore board when the opponents have done something stupid, but you can't bid sensibly on the hands where you are in the game zone. So, you may do better against opponents with poor judgment, but you do worse against opponents who have good judgment.

 

Edit: One more thought: if you want to be able to make more penalty doubles, play more forcing passes. I prefer to play pass as forcing in this sequence.

Edited July 15, 2010 by gnasher

[Stephen Tu]

It seems to me that there are a lot of hands where you think that you probably would have made 4♥ or 3nt, you definitely would have bid it if they had only bid 3. But once they sac at 4♠, you believe the chances of making 4nt/5 something, while non-zero, have dropped low enough that it's better on average to just hit them. If double by both players says "I want to bid over them, pull unless your ODR is horrendous", then to me they rob you blind on a lot of hands, you collect 100/150 when you were entitled to 620 if they didn't sac, field is getting 300/500 when they can double.

 

you can't bid sensibly on the hands where you are in the game zone

You can't? To me you still have chances. If you think you can probably make 5, you can simply bid it. It's the same result if you make a "please pull offensive double" and partner pulls, which he is supposed to do the vast majority of the time, apparently. From my perspective the offense double only helps you when one partner really wants to bid 5, but the other partner can tell that it's a bad idea, and the partner that wanted to bid acts first Or maybe I'm confused and someone can give me an example pair of hands where you really needed the offense double in order to be able to act sensibly and that this situation is reasonably common.

[hanp]

This thread is amazing.

 

And this might be the first time I've used the word amazing in a positive way.

[bb79]

While I hate to refer to the ACBL Bulletin as an authority on bidding, I do sometimes read some of the articles, and I think Bergen recently suggested (I may be wrong about the author) that the camp 1 approach was best....he treated it as something few of his readers would ever have thought about, and, knowing his target audience, I am sure he is right.

The author was Billy Miller - June 2010 issue.

[gnasher]

If double by both players says "I want to bid over them, pull unless your ODR is horrendous"

Nobody said that that's what double means.

 

"please pull offensive double"

or that

 

From my perspective the offense double only helps you when one partner really wants to bid 5

or that

 

Edit:

 

partner pulls, which he is supposed to do the vast majority of the time, apparently

Nobody said that either

Edited July 15, 2010 by gnasher

[Stephen Tu]

So can you exactly define the parameters of the double, in terms of strength and expected enemy trump length/shape in other suits?

 

If the parameters were more exact, I could probably get on board. My problem is that the shape parameters seem to be very vague. If one only doubled on say hands with extra values, semi-balanced, with 2 trumps, then at least opposite I'd have a better idea what to do. But if you are doing this on both hands like this and hands with void in their trump suit, on the other side I feel like I'm totally guessing and this modern double hasn't helped me at all.

[quiddity]

One thing I have wondered about before: do high-level card-showing doubles promise a fit for partner's suit? On that same auction

 

1D (1S) 2H (4S)

 

what do you do with a good 3=1=5=4 hand? Are you basically forced to either pass or bid 4N for fear of partner pulling a double to 5♥? What about a good 3=1=6=3 where your diamonds aren't solid?

 

I agree that holding 4 good spades on this auction is low probability but these good misfit hands don't seem too unlikely at all.

[JLOGIC]

So can you exactly define the parameters of the double, in terms of strength and expected enemy trump length/shape in other suits?

 

If the parameters were more exact, I could probably get on board.  My problem is that the shape parameters seem to be very vague. If one only doubled on say hands with extra values, semi-balanced, with 2 trumps, then at least opposite I'd have a better idea what to do.  But if you are doing this on both hands like this and hands with void in their trump suit, on the other side I feel like I'm totally guessing and this modern double hasn't helped me at all.

With spade length you pass, and with spade shortness you double. When you have 3 spades and a strong hand, you might be in some trouble.

 

However, as opener presuming you have less than a 1N opener your fine with 4S getting passed out.

 

If you have more than a 1N opener, you probably have enough where if you double and partner bids something it's ok. At some point you are just too strong to pass unless your spades are super strong like KQJ. But again, I wouldn't worry too much about the opps bidding 4S with no points and bad spades.

 

Remember, whenever you have 3 spades in this auction you are marked with a fit. If you have enough combined strength/offense, you can play 5 of your fit. If don't have that combined strength/offense, you can defend 4S. The only problem is sometimes you will defend it undoubled. If you can't make anything, that isn't really that big of a problem. And even if the opps are crazy, most of the times even the crazy ones have some semblance of their bids, or at least have some trump honors.

 

If you are unbalanced with shortness in partners suit and spade length again you have to pass.

 

Often partner will reopen with a double if they have spade shortness in this auction (indeed if they actually have 10+ and short spades opposite an opener, they will, but of course sometimes you stretch to bid 2H in this auciton with like an 8 count).

 

If you are responder with a good hand and spade length, you often pass. Again, at some point you're too strong to pass, but if you have 3 spades and an opening hand you know you have a fit anyways, so if you're strong enough and don't have terrible spades (for offense) you can X. If you are 3523 for instance, you will play your fit at the 5 level.

 

If you don't have much extra you can just pass and go plus. If you have something like KQJ of spades and an opening hand you must pass, but again, it's unlikely they bid 4S with no points and terrible spades.

 

You seem to want parameters, but there are too many possible hand types and variables. The most common parameter IN THIS AUCTION is that you double with short spades and some extras. If you know you have a good fit already or if you have a really good 1 suiter, you can just bid. If your hand sucks for offense you pass, no matter how good it is for defense.

 

But yeah there are a million auctions with different nuances and they have different parameters.

[gnasher]

I've found a bit of Stephen's earlier post that doesn't contain a straw man:

It seems to me that there are a lot of hands where you think that you probably would have made 4♥ or 3nt, you definitely would have bid it if they had only bid 3.

Yes, there are lots of hands like that. In my world, double includes that category of hand. When I said

A double by either hand shows offensive values and says "I think we might make game".

I meant that we might be able to make a contract that carries a game bonus, including contracts which are lower than what the opponents have just bid.

 

The idea is that one hand doubles to say "We probably have the wherewithal for game, but I'm not willing to bid any higher by myself", and the other hand then decides whether to defend or to bid.

 

As I understand it, you're advocating that double mean simply "We can defeat this contract", without expressing an opinion about what we might be able to make.

 

What will be the result of this difference in meaning?

- On many deals the result will be the same: we will defend their contract doubled.

- There will be some deals where you gain, because it's a partscore deal where they have overreached, and you get to double them but I don't.

- There will be some deals where I gain, because my partnership knows that we are in the game zone, and is better placed to decide whether to defend or to compete to the five level.

 

So, I gain on the deals where the opponents have done something right, and you gain on the deals where the opponents have done something wrong.

[JLOGIC]

So to summarize, the more spades I have the more overall offensive values I need to double. The less spades I have the less values I need to double.

 

This makes sense to me because the less spades I have, the less HCP I will need in order to make a game.

 

After seeing gnashers post I will say there is one annoying category he left out, hands where we can beat them a lot and also make 3N or 4H on power (rather than a partial), but cant make 5H because we have too many spade values. Those hands might end up having to defend undoubled but those hands are very unlikely given their bidding.

 

And even when they occur, it requires the hand with the good spades to have all the extra values in the partnership. If this is not the case, the other guy will be able to double anyways.

 

I think worrying about that hand type is wrong though since it almost never comes up.

[Stephen Tu]

The idea is that one hand doubles to say "We probably have the wherewithal for game, but I'm not willing to bid any higher by myself", and the other hand then decides whether to defend or to bid.

 

As I understand it, you're advocating that double mean simply "We can defeat this contract", without expressing an opinion about what we might be able to make.

 

Don't we usually already have the information about whether we are in game zone or not? If responder has an opening hand, then we were in the game zone already, the opening bid already told us, opener doesn't have to double 4s for us to know. Opener knows responder is at least 9+ or so, almost game zone. The real question is whether we are in the bid 5 over 4 zone or not.

 

Andy & Justin don't seem to be doubling on the same hands, from what I gather. What if responder has some opening hand with doubleton spade, 5/6 hearts. You probably expected to make 4h on power, probably can beat 4s a couple tricks on power. But 5h is probably too much, partner can have doubleton spade also and there's another loser somewhere. Justin says don't double, just take your (small) plus? Andy you are doubling or not? Same with 3 small spades, partner didn't double with his shortness since he had a min opener, you still expect to beat 4s on power, don't want to bid 5 since partner is min.

[JLOGIC]

If I have a doubleton spade and a good hand I will always double as either hand fwiw, I include doubleton as short spades. I'm pretty sure andy and I would double on the same hands based on what he's said, maybe he would double a little more often than me with 3 spades but probably not a big diff.

[Stephen Tu]

To me that's tough to handle though. Partner doubles showing a good hand and 0-2 spades. You are sitting on a doubleton. If partner also has doubleton, you are probably not right to bid on, they get 2 spades and some trick elsewhere. Otherwise you want to bid. How to tell? It's even worse when the opps are maniacs and might even be bidding this way with only 8 spades.

[gnasher]

Don't we usually already have the information about whether we are in game zone or not?  If responder has an opening hand, then we were in the game zone already, the opening bid already told us, opener doesn't have to double 4s for us to know.

 

Opener knows responder is at least 9+ or so, almost game zone.  The real question is whether we are in the bid 5 over 4 zone or not.

If we both already know that we have the values + shape for game, it's a forcing pass situation. If only one of us knows that we have the values + shape for game, a double by that hand says "we have the values + shape for game (and I don't have a strong aversion to hearing you bid)".

 

(I would also play forcing passes where we both know that we have close to game values, but Justin, I think, would not.)

 

Andy & Justin don't seem to be doubling on the same hands, from what I gather.  What if responder has some opening hand with doubleton spade, 5/6 hearts.  You probably expected to make 4h on power, probably can beat 4s a couple tricks on power. But 5h is probably too much, partner can have doubleton spade also and there's another loser somewhere.  Justin says don't double, just take your (small) plus?

Where did he say that?

 

Andy you are doubling or not?

Yes, I'm doubling, to protect my game bonus. After I've doubled, if partner judges that "5h is probably too much", he will pass. If he judges that 5♥ is not too much, and 4♠ is going for an inadequate penalty, he'll bid.

 

Obviously in real life it isn't as neat as that sounds - my double has to cover a range of shapes and strengths, and opener will sometimes misjudge.

 

Same with 3 small spades, partner didn't double with his shortness since he had a min opener, you still expect to beat 4s on power, don't want to bid 5 since partner is min.

You might have to give me an actual hand, but if it exists it sounds like a reluctant pass.

[gnasher]

To me that's tough to handle though. Partner doubles showing a good hand and 0-2 spades. You are sitting on a doubleton. If partner also has doubleton, you are probably not right to bid on, they get 2 spades and some trick elsewhere. Otherwise you want to bid. How to tell? It's even worse when the opps are maniacs and might even be bidding this way with only 8 spades.

Many hands with 0 spades would bid rather than doubling. And if we reach the five level with a doubleton in each hand, it will usually be xx opposite xx, so we may be solid elsewhere.

 

Anyway, in my experience the problems you describe don't seem to be as common or as hard to solve as you suggest. Instead of dealing in abstractions, why don't you tell us about some actual deals where this style has caused you insoluble problems?

[JLOGIC]

Agree that having a doubleton is the hardest problem, the same is true with 4S p p X and other auctions

 

Generally I err on the side of passing and taking the money when I have a doubleton because bidding on if partner also has a doubleton is a disaster.

 

Depending on the auction and opps, they might be extremely likely to have 10 trumps, in which case I would pull more often with a doubleton.

 

I once wrote on here that in auctions where they haven't bid and raise, you should always be passing with a balanced hand, and I believe that. In auctions where they've bid and raised it's slightly different, but that rule is often true.

 

Again it all depends on various factors, including the rest of your hand. The fact that you sometimes have hard problems that you might misjudge doesn't mean it's right to play penalty doubles, or that your judgments are largely going to be random, imo

[Stephen Tu]

Yes, I'm doubling, to protect my game bonus. After I've doubled, if partner judges that "5h is probably too much", he will pass. If he judges that 5♥  is not too much, and 4♠  is going for an inadequate penalty, he'll bid.

 

Obviously in real life it isn't as neat as that sounds - my double has to cover a range of shapes and strengths, and opener will sometimes misjudge.

 

See here's what I don't get. Apparently you are saying that opener has a hand that wants to either defend 4♠ undoubled, or play 5♥ if responder has the extra K or so for doubling rather than the 9/10 count he might have stretched to make a free bid with? I'm not sure what that hand looks like. If opener has a good hand for hearts, fit + spade shortness, and is always pulling the double, what's bad about just bidding 5♥ over 4♠ as a 2 way shot? Otherwise, it seems that responder wasn't sure about bidding on, opener still shouldn't be sure so he ought to pass. And if opener is passing, that means responder's double is basically just penalty, he can double with defensive as well as the offense power hands that will beat them on power.

 

Now opener's double in non-balancing chair is another story, maybe that should be played differently, giving responder a more info to act with his shapely hands. But I feel it ought to be better defined in terms of spade length, either promising 2+ or denying 2+, to constrict the range of shapes and make the guessing more accurate.

[JLOGIC]

Stephen,

 

You are annoyed with the guesswork involved (and sometimes the lack of penalties?) with the way we are suggesting.

 

But if you play penalty doubles, you are almost always going to have to guess by yourself whether to bid or double them. Often you're supposed to be bidding to the 5 level, but you won't know that. It seems like penalty doubles will introduce far more guesswork than what we are suggesting.

 

You just suggested 2 new possibilities, double shows 0-1, or double shows 2-3

 

If you double with 0-1 and extras:

 

You must bid when you have 2-3 and extras, or pass. This is clearly the worst possible, because you will often be 2-2 which will force you both to pass. You are going to miss the most penalties possible this way, especially if the opps are crazy as you say and can have an 8 card fit. If you bid you might catch partner with 1 and a minimum, or you might catch him with 2.

 

If you double with 2-3 and extras:

 

You will have to bid unilaterally by yourself with a singleton and extras. Since this is frequent, you will very often just 5 over 5 yourself. When you have a singleton and extras it is the most important time to involve partner in the decision of whether to double them or bid on, but you're forcing yourself to just bid.

 

You want it to be all about shape, but there is also the strength issue (you're not in a forcing pass), and what the rest of your hand is like. If you want to break it down by shape only then you can play that you're in a forcing pass, as gnasher suggested. Then you can easily double with length and pass with shortness and it's all fine and dandy.

 

But I'm sure you're not talking about this specific auction, but these auctions in general when you're not in a FP yet.

 

The way I think it is correct to break it down is that you have these hand types:

 

1) Minimum with good offense

2) Extras with good offense

3) Minimum with bad offense

4) Extras with bad offense

 

Note, generally good offense and bad offense are broken down by shortness in trumps or not.

 

With 1 you can pass. If partner passes it out, he has either hand 3, or 4. He could have hand 1 but he would stretch to bid. This is fine, the worst part is that you don't get to double them sometimes when he has hand 4.

 

With hand 2 you double. If partner has 1 or 2 he bids, 3 or 4 he passes. No problem, and you've done well.

 

With hand 3 you pass. If partner passes no problem, if he doubles no problem you pass.

 

With hand 4 you must pass. If partner has hand 1 or 3 or 4 he passes, and you don't double. But if you have "bad offense" meaning wastage/length in their suit, partner is likely to have "good offense" himself. Hand 3 and 4 are impossible. Hand 1 he might stretch to bid, and if he passes it out it's not the end of the world, you just missed doubling them.

 

The biggest problem with this scheme is as you pointed out, a doubleton can be tough to diagnose (is this good offense or bad offense, depends on the rest of the hand and if parnter is also doubleton. If you both judge it as good offense you will misjudge and bid). Generally with a doubleton the doubler should play it as good offense, and the passer should play it as bad offense, but of course this is not set in stone.

 

That is the most complicated issue, but the initial doubler with extras will not be unhappy if partner bids, he should have enough cards in the other suits for that to be fine. If partner passes, he won't be unhappy either, he has extras and should beat the contract. Responder will typically err on the side of caution, knowing that the opps contract will go down, and not risk bidding on. This makes it hard to bid on to 5 correctly with a 2-1 fit, and you might just defend 4S X, but again this is not the end of the world. It is much better to me than bidding on to the 5 level unilaterally and hoping it all works out.

 

This scheme, which I will call expert standard, allows you to judge the most intelligently whether or not you should be bidding on or defending. Sometimes by defending you just get to defend undoubled rather than doubled, but that is not a huge deal. With the space allowed, priority must be placed on bidding or defending correctly the highest %age of the time, even if sometimes defending means you don't get the max penalty...at least you went plus.