pass for penalty?

[Stephen Tu]

[hv=d=s&v=e&s=st74h94dak96caj72]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]

1♦-(1♥)-dbl-(p);

2♣(1)-(2♥)-dbl-(p);

?(2)

 

(1) Do you prefer some other call here, if so what?

 

(2) Now what? If you pull, what sort of hand do you need to leave it in? If you pass, what shapes are you supposed to be pulling with?

[whereagles]

If pard had a 4 card minor, he could have bid it.

 

If he had 5 card spades, he would have bid 1♠.

 

Therefore he rates to have like a 4333 and some extras. I would pass the double.

[Free]

Partner can hardly have a penalty Dbl here. I'd just bid 2♠. 2♣ the previous round is pretty normal, you don't have any alternative (1♠ might be too encouraging).

[Fluffy]

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

[gordontd]

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

[gordontd]

If pard had a 4 card minor, he could have bid it.

 

If he had 5 card spades, he would have bid 1♠.

 

Therefore he rates to have like a 4333 and some extras. I would pass the double.

I agree. If we can get it one off, it doesn't matter if we were making 2♠.

[gwnn]

I'd bid 1S first time, showing three spades.

[Codo]

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

His experience....

 

I still had bid 2 ♣ and now 2 ♠ to confirm a 3244 or 3154 hand.

Is easy enough.

[cloa513]

What about if he had 4 spades and 5 hearts? He figures not to have decent penalty at the one level so tries for game in spades but opponents are too aggressive (certainly had a few of those) and continues to bid. Its a straight penalty bid now.

[JLOGIC]

Definitely pass 2H X, we have AK AJ and only 4-4 in the minors. Partners most likely shape by far is 4333. We should have them outgunned by a lot, and they are vul at MP. If partner has doubled a second time with a 4 card minor I believe he will have significant defensive values to risk us passing when he has primary support.

 

As far as the first round of bidding I would bid 1S which is usually a 3 card suit which means usually a weak NT with no heart stopper. If I was 2344 I would bid 1N with our without a heart stopper.

[jdonn]

Definitely agree we should have bid 1♠ the first round, and I wouldn't have been confident in it on my own but outside influences have sold me on pass now.

[gordontd]

round before the standard nowadays is to bid 1NT

Do you have anything to back up this assertion?

His experience....

Since not one other person has so far suggested they would have bid 1NT on the previous round with this hand, it can hardly be correct to describe it as "standard".

[jdonn]

It's standard that the 1NT bid doesn't require a stopper. That does not mean it's "standard" to bid it on this hand (whatever that even means).

[gnasher]

Since not one other person has so far suggested they would have bid 1NT on the previous round with this hand, it can hardly be correct to describe it as "standard".

Suppose that the overcall were 1♠ and I were 2344 without a spade stop. I prefer to play a style where that would be a 1NT rebid (and a 1♣ opening).

 

There are even some people opposite whom I would assume that without discussion. But I dont think it's standard.

[jdonn]

What do people bid after 1♣ (1♠) X (P) with xxx xxx AKQ Axxx without discussion? Maybe "standard" is the wrong word but there are times the alternatives seem clearly worse.

[Fluffy]

yeah well, its not as standard as puppet stayman, but kind of :P

[whereagles]

What do people bid after 1♣ (1♠) X (P) with xxx xxx AKQ Axxx without discussion? Maybe "standard" is the wrong word but there are times the alternatives seem clearly worse.

it's an obvious 1NT wtp

[Stephen Tu]

I held the other hand, 4432 12 count, only 1 trump trick, but still +500 on best defense, overcaller had rebid 2♥ on a 2551??. 3nt down 1, maybe I should have just bid 2nt. I really thought partner should have passed, didn't think it was close on this one no matter how you interpret the double. I also kind of prefer old-fashioned penalty doubles in these later round spots, after both partners have had a chance to describe their hands to some extent, ("I think defending is right, don't pull without a weird hand, if I'm unsure what to do I'll just take my best guess between NT/one of your minors"), instead of modern blame-transfer doubles ("I don't know what to do, but don't want to pass, so I'll double. Oh, you didn't know what to do either? You get the blame for guessing wrong"), I can never find a book with clear examples of what hands to double with, and clear examples of what hands opener should pull with vs. leave in, so I always feel like I am guessing on both sides and my results are accordingly random. Does any book like this exist that can set me straight? Can some good player write one so I can buy it?

 

 

Also,

There seem to be two camps:

1m-(1♥)-dbl-(p);

1♠/2♠

 

camp 1:

1♠ = 3 cd sp usually, or 4 cds but the hand got worse (4333 ♥Qxx min or something)

2♠ = 4 cd sp, "I would have bid 2♠ if opps had passed and response was 1♠"

 

camp 2:

1♠ = normally 4

2♠ = extra values, "I would have jumped to 3♠ or been close to it in uncontested auction"

 

What's your estimate of the current split in adv/expert partnerships?

[Fluffy]

I ahve no clue Stephen, I play X is 4+ spades, kind of transfer, and 1 is exactly 3, but 2♠ is exactly 4. But if you happen to play 1♠ = 5 or more cards and X = 4 cards or maybe less then things are different.

[jdonn]

You posted a thread on that same topic a year or two ago I remember. I've come close to believing camp 2 is pretty much obsolete and I have definitely moved toward camp 1.

[jdonn]

What do people bid after 1♣ (1♠) X (P) with xxx xxx AKQ Axxx without discussion? Maybe "standard" is the wrong word but there are times the alternatives seem clearly worse.

it's an obvious 1NT wtp

Exactly, so I don't see how some people seem to think 1NT promises a stopper here.

[mikeh]

I held the other hand, 4432 12 count, only 1 trump trick, but still +500 on best defense, overcaller had rebid 2♥ on a 2551??.  3nt down 1, maybe I should have just bid 2nt.  I really thought partner should have passed, didn't think it was close on this one no matter how you interpret the double.  I also kind of prefer old-fashioned penalty doubles in these later round spots, after both partners have had a chance to describe their hands to some extent, ("I think defending is right, don't pull without a weird hand, if I'm unsure what to do I'll just take my best guess between NT/one of your minors"), instead of modern blame-transfer doubles ("I don't know what to do, but don't want to pass, so I'll double.  Oh, you didn't know what to do either?  You get the blame for guessing wrong"), I can never find a book with clear examples of what hands to double with, and clear examples of what hands opener should pull with vs. leave in, so I always feel like I am guessing on both sides and my results are accordingly random.  Does any book like this exist that can set me straight?  Can some good player write one so I can buy it?

 

 

Also,

There seem to be two camps:

1m-(1♥)-dbl-(p);

1♠/2♠

 

camp 1:

1♠ = 3 cd sp usually, or 4 cds but the hand got worse (4333 ♥Qxx min or something)

2♠ = 4 cd sp, "I would have bid 2♠ if opps had passed and response was 1♠"

 

camp 2:

1♠ = normally 4

2♠ = extra values, "I would have jumped to 3♠ or been close to it in uncontested auction"

 

What's your estimate of the current split in adv/expert partnerships?

While I hate to refer to the ACBL Bulletin as an authority on bidding, I do sometimes read some of the articles, and I think Bergen recently suggested (I may be wrong about the author) that the camp 1 approach was best....he treated it as something few of his readers would ever have thought about, and, knowing his target audience, I am sure he is right.

 

I prefer, as do others, that double shows 4+ spades....we use 1♠ as a catchall for hands that don't want to pass, yet can't bid 1N, can't double, can't raise...so a typical hand after 1D (1H) 1S is say 3=3=3=4 or 2=3=3=5 or such with a smattering of points....7-10 or so.

 

I don't mind a stopperless 1N by opener after doubles, but stopperless 1N by responder...no thanks.

 

On the auction, I'm with Josh....my inclination was a wtp 1♠ (the call I would have made last time) but I am persuaded that pass is best. Not because it is a penalty double, but precisely because it is exactly the type of double the OP detests, and the analysis of partner's hand type afforded by others.

[JLOGIC]

I guess I am a mix of camp 1 and 2. I like to bid 1S on either 3 or 4 + min. I like to bid 2S on mild extras, like a good 13+.

 

I don't see any trouble with this. Partner can bid naturally over 1S assuming I have 3. If partner jumps to 3N we can correct to 4S with 4.

 

Some people like to be able to bid 2S any time with 4 to preempt LHO and that has merit but I think it's more important to improve our constructive bidding with an LHO who has already bid and an RHO who has passed.

 

I don't know of anyone who plays 1S shows 4 always though. I do notice you said "normally" 4+, I don't know what this means but if it's "1N rebids without a stopper and 3 spades, or 4 spades and a minimum" then I guess that's my camp. I would guess I have 3 more often than 4 though.

 

Re the hate on "blame transfer doubles" or whatever, I see this a lot especially on the forums and I don't believe it's true. The doubles are generally well defined based on what they cannot hold. For example, I said your shape is an overwhelming favorite to be 4333 on this auction for your 2nd double (with about 10+ probably). That was not very far off, and the only reason you had 4423 is because they didn't have a 2H bid. This shape, though possible, will be much less likely than 4333 because they have shown long hearts.

 

I think it is entirely possible to make good judgments over the double, and I also think it is necessary to be able to double very often in this auction and collect a nice number without having it be pure penalty. You just have it way more often than a pure pen X. In fact, I think you will get a LOT more numbers by doubling on a good hand with some defense than just with a heart stack. Of course you can double on those hands anyways playing penalty doubles, but you really don't want partner to pass with a stiff heart most of the time.

 

I DO agree that people bid poorly over these doubles because they get flustered or nervous and don't just think along the lines of "well, partner has denied 5 spades, and definitely won't have a 5 card minor, and often with a 4 card minor he would just raise so his hand looks like..." This is a reflection of the bridge players, not the double. This area of bidding is just newer and more complicated than most, and as you pointed out there is no reading material or anything about it. But I do think it is by far the most effective way to bid.

 

I would also not mind doubling on something like AKxx Kx Jxx xxxx at this vul at MP. We have 3 tricks and likely a 4th on a spade ruff (if partner passes and has 9 minor suit cards then they have short spades), and it's likely partner can take at least 2 tricks so theres 200. But of course it would be pretty silly to make a "penalty" double on this hand. Partner also should not pass with a doubleton heart and terrible D, ie xx xx KQJxx KQTx should not pass. That is perfect for us.

[Stephen Tu]

So what's the dividing line for opener pulling? Is it simply "always pull with stiff/void trump, leave it in with doubleton trump" at the 2 level? Or are there hands you would still pull with a doubleton trump? [Edit: I see you are pulling with doubleton trump and poor QT]

 

How about if the opps are now at the 3 or 4 level, what criteria do you use for leaving it in then? Now you don't need nearly as many trumps to be fairly confident about going +, and need more tricks if you pull. Does it now go down to leave in with stiff trump, pull with void, or what?

 

What if the opps are often nuts like actual opp, weakish field, and neg doubler does have some 45xx? (BTW I don't know that I "only had 4432 since they didn't have the 2♥ bid", somewhat easily I can have 4♥ and his partner a stiff heart if he did have his bid) Pass and hope opener reopens w/ double? Is opener really supposed to take 3 calls with 3154 12 count? What if opener is 3-0-5-5?

 

Then there are situations where opps have gone a little bit crazy at favorable, preempted to 4♠, I'm say 4243 with a couple trump tricks, partner has bid hearts, I'm pretty sure he is void spade and going to bid 5 of something for the vul game bonus but go down due to the wastage, I can't double to get him to STFU since it's forward-going not penalty, and can't really expect him to reopen with double with a void either, or pass it out. How to solve those?

[gnasher]

What do people bid after 1♣ (1♠) X (P) with xxx xxx AKQ Axxx without discussion? Maybe "standard" is the wrong word but there are times the alternatives seem clearly worse.

it's an obvious 1NT wtp

Exactly, so I don't see how some people seem to think 1NT promises a stopper here.

I don't think anyone did say that. Gordon only challenged the suggestion that 1NT was standard on the originally posted hand.