finesse the queen

[gwnn]

simple question. until yesterday night I wasn't aware that there was a controversy.

[JLOGIC]

It means playing the jack. If you play low to the queen you're finessing the king!

[blackshoe]

Interesting. I voted for the second option myself, but then looked it up. My dictionary says "(in bridge and whist) play (a card that is not a certain winner) in the hope of winning a trick with it : the declarer finesses ♦J." So this dictionary says the first answer here is correct. I checked The Bridge World's glossary, which has the singularly unhelpful entry "attempt to take advantage of the location of one or more cards not held". Dictionary.com has both definitions. Wikipedia has a long article about finesses which does not define the phrase, although buried in about the middle of the page is a statement implying the second option is correct. The even longer article in The Encyclopedia of Bridge doesn't help either. I guess I'll stick with option two, although I would not be surprised if both meanings are correct. Anybody got an OED? :rolleyes:

[gnasher]

I think both usages are common. I usually avoid the problem by using the verb intransitively, for example, "finesse against the king" or "finesse with the queen".

 

Anybody got an OED?

One of the lesser versions of the OED is available online. The relevant entry reads

finesse

verb [with object]

 

1 bring about or deal with (something) by using great delicacy and skill: Karen spent ten months finessing the financing for the property

chiefly North American slyly attempt to avoid blame or censure when dealing with (a situation or problem): despite the administration's attempts to finesse its mishaps, the public remained wary

 

2 (in bridge and whist) play (a card ) in the hope of winning a trick with it because any card that could beat it is in the hand of the opponent who has already played

The NSOED adds nothing relevant, except that it mentions that the verb can be used intransitively.

 

Whilst the second definition doesn't answer the question, to be consistent with the examples in the first meaning "finesse the queen" would mean playing the jack.

[Free]

I always thought it was the card you're hoping to find well placed. So when playing to AKJ you want the Q to be onside, so you finesse the Q. Playing to AQ, you want the K onside, so you finesse the K.

[JLOGIC]

Heh, interesting I never knew this was even questionable. Good thread. Maybe it's a regional thing, I don't recall ever hearing the first usage.

[jjbrr]

I think I'm guilty of both in different contexts, but when I claim on a finesse I usually say it as B describes.

[gnasher]

With AJ10x opposite xxx, do you "finesse the king and queen"?

[ArtK78]

I always thought that you referred to the missing card as being finessed against, as in "I played dummy's queen in a successful finesse against the king." Anything else would refer to the card being played, as in "I finessed dummy's queen." But I can see where this would be confusing.

 

How about we all take sides and then decide the issue by mortal combat?

[jjbrr]

How about we all take sides and then decide the issue by mortal combat?

Suppose two contestants of equal strength, height, and combat experience were to fight, and one was given a bat while the other a knife, who do you think would win?

[blackshoe]

Depends. If neither of them know what they're doing, the bat wins. If both of them know what they're doing, the knife probably wins, but might not. If only one of them knows what he's doing, he wins. Disregarding luck, anyway.

[pooltuna]

you finesse for the K in the first and you finesse for the queen in the second

[shyams]

Depends. If neither of them know what they're doing, the bat wins. If both of them know what they're doing, the knife probably wins, but might not. If only one of them knows what he's doing, he wins. Disregarding luck, anyway.

Actually, the answer is obvious. Batman always wins!

[cherdanno]

I always thought finessing the queen means playing the J from AKJ or s.th. similar, it wouldn't have occurred to me anyone would use it differently

[Bbradley62]

you finesse for the K in the first and you finesse for the queen in the second

This. Although sometimes I'll finesse West for the King.

[manudude03]

I use it to mean the first, but usually say "finesse against the King" to make it clear.

[G_R__E_G]

Just say "Finesse" and let everyone look at the cards and figure it out for themselves. It's easier that way.

[dburn]

Anybody got an OED?

Yes. That work gives:

 

2. a. Whist and Bridge. intr. To attempt to take a trick by finesse; also trans. To play (a particular card) for the purpose of finessing.

and defines "finesse" as:

 

In whist: (see quot. 1862). In bridge: (see quot. 1959).

1862 ‘CAVENDISH’ Whist (1870) 28 A finesse is an endeavour, by the second or third player, to obtain or keep the command of a suit by heading a trick with an inferior card, though holding a higher one of the suit not in sequence.

1959 REESE & DORMER Bridge Player's Dict. 89 A finesse is an attempt to profit from a favorable lie of the cards. A player tries to win or establish a trick with a card that is not the highest held by his side.

All of this suggests that the card you play (e.g. the queen from AQ) is the card that you finesse - it is the object of the (transitive) verb in the part of the definition following trans. above. The card (or cards) with which you hope that an opponent won't beat the card you finesse is the card (or cards) against which you finesse.

[gwnn]

BTW I always thought it meant low to AQ. All books that I've read used it like this (or so I remember).

[dburn]

BTW I always thought it meant low to AQ. All books that I've read used it like this (or so I remember).

If you run the queen from QJ facing Ax, you are also finessing the queen. As indeed you are if you run the queen from Qx facing Ax, and the question of why this should be referred to as a "Chinese finesse" is one that even the OED does not attempt to resolve.

[TimG]

Heh, interesting I never knew this was even questionable. Good thread. Maybe it's a regional thing, I don't recall ever hearing the first usage.

I was so sure the first is right that I thought you were just yanking gwnn's chain when you said it was obviously the second.

[jdonn]

I thought it meant AQ. If you have AKJ you are finessing FOR the queen, by finessing the jack. No? I guess I never thought about it since I always use the "for" terminology lol.

 

Wow the poll is tied. This is the hardest bridge problem we have yet come across.

 

Hey reading the thread maybe I'm wrong to say "for" and should say "against". Or maybe they mean the same thing even though they usually mean the opposite of each other. Now my head is spinning. Gwnn you always pose the deep important questions of our time and for that the world thanks you.

[mikegill]

I have always heard/said you finesse against the K by finessing the Q.

[Siegmund]

I too have heard both usages, but regarded #2 as a rather obscure oldfashionedism/Britishism/something-else-ism.

 

I expect "finesse the queen" to mean "lead towards the queen" and "finesse against the queen" or "finesse for the queen" to mean "lead towards the jack."

 

I never ever ever call leading Q from QJ toward the A "finessing." That is running the queen. (Yes, many books cover QJ-Ax and QJT-Axx in the same breath as lead-toward-style finessing. It's a damn nuisance that they do; once a beginner has heard it described that way, just see what happens when they have A32 opposite QJ54 and you tell them their best chance for 3 tricks to finesse.)

[jdonn]

I never ever ever call leading Q from QJ toward the A "finessing." That is running the queen.

Um that is finessing!