natural 2/1 follow-ups

[han]

Here are some simple questions about openers rebid in a (gameforcing) 2/1 auction. I'd like to know what the modern style is.

 

1) Does rebidding your major show extra lenth, or is it a catch-all?

 

2) Does rebidding 2NT show a balanced hand? Stoppers in the unbid suits? or is it a catch all?

 

3) Does a raise of partner's minor show 3 or 4? Does it show extras?

 

4) Does bidding a new suit above 2M show extras?

 

5) What should we play a jump in a new suit as? (e.g. 1S-2D-3H).

 

6) What other questions should I discuss with a regular partner.

[helene_t]

1) Does rebidding your major show extra lenth, or is it a catch-all?

It does not promise extra length, but neverless you should discuss this with your partner. Lawrence rebids his 5-card major very often, Hardy much less.

 

2) Does rebidding 2NT show a balanced hand? Stoppers in the unbid suits? or is it a catch all?

It deffently shows a ballanced hand. This is related to 1). Lawrence prefers to have stoppers in the unbid suits, although it may be half-stoppers sometimes.

 

3) Does a raise of partner's minor show 3 or 4? Does it show extras?

If you play the natural 2NT response (we have had some long threads about this issue), partners minor tends to be a 5-card and you may support it on a 3-card if you really can't do anything else. It should be an exception, though. And if you play an artificial 2NT response, it should always be a 4-card. It does not show extras.

 

4) Does bidding a new suit above 2M show extras?

Yes.

 

5) What should we play a jump in a new suit as? (e.g. 1S-2D-3H).

We had another trend about this, the vast majority voted for a splinter raise, i.e. singleton hearts (not an honour), 4-card diamond support.

[Free]

1) Does rebidding your major show extra lenth, or is it a catch-all?

 

No, this is rather a catch-all.

 

2) Does rebidding 2NT show a balanced hand? Stoppers in the unbid suits? or is it a catch all?

 

Yes, it shows a balanced hand, and extra's!

 

3) Does a raise of partner's minor show 3 or 4? Does it show extras?

 

3+ card support, doesn't need extras.

 

4) Does bidding a new suit above 2M show extras?

 

Yes!

 

5) What should we play a jump in a new suit as? (e.g. 1S-2D-3H).

 

This is a standard splinter-raise. Your example is singleton H with ♦ support.

 

6) What other questions should I discuss with a regular partner.

 

Dunno :angry:

[vang]

5) What should we play a jump in a new suit as? (e.g. 1S-2D-3H).

 

This is a standard splinter-raise.  Your example is singleton H with ♦ support.

 

this is a standard 5-5 with good suits.

now, we have 2 standards here ;-)

[Free]

I didn't say "standard this is a splinter", I said "this is a standard splinter". We had a poll a while ago and splinter was more popular than 5-5 :angry:

[EricK]

My favoured style is

 

1) 2M is catch-all

2) 2NT shows 15-17 (3NT shows 18-19)

3) Raise shows 4 or a good three and extras (ie at least a good 14)

4) Bids above 2M show extras (bids at or below 2M don't necessarily deny extras though)

5) I think this should show 5-5 with good suits (I realise that splinter is more common, but those hands should just raise the minor IMO).

6) Make it clear how either side can show extras below the level of game. If one can not make a clear slam try below game level then one loses much of the benefit of playing 2/1.

 

Eric

[1eyedjack]

2) 2NT shows 15-17 (3NT shows 18-19)

I quite like 2NT = 15+ (upper limit constrained only by upper limit of opening bid).

It means playing a weak 1N opener, of course. This means that the 2N rebid can be GF even if the 2/1 response itself was NOT GF. With the 18-19 there is still a lot of scope for using the bids below 3N.

[EricK]

2) 2NT shows 15-17 (3NT shows 18-19)

I quite like 2NT = 15+ (upper limit constrained only by upper limit of opening bid).

It means playing a weak 1N opener, of course. This means that the 2N rebid can be GF even if the 2/1 response itself was NOT GF. With the 18-19 there is still a lot of scope for using the bids below 3N.

With 30+ points between the hands, there is not so much need for space below 3NT.

 

My answers might vary if 2/1 were not 100%GF, or if balanced 15-17 with a 5 card major were always opened 1NT.

 

Eric

[1eyedjack]

With 30+ points between the hands, there is not so much need for space below 3NT.

I find that available space if properly exploited is seldom worthless.

I dislike using the 4 level to investigate strain. If I can get the shape definitions across at the 3 level then I am much happier looking for other features at the 4 and 5 level, even with 30+ combined values.

[paulg]

1) Does rebidding your major show extra length, or is it a catch-all?[

 

I prefer it to be the catch all. The alternative is to use 2NT as the catch all but I feel the major is a better option.

 

2) Does rebidding 2NT show a balanced hand? Stoppers in the unbid suits? or is it a catch all?

 

I play 2NT as game forcing showing either 12-14 balanced or 18-19 balanced (depending on your 1NT range).

 

3) Does a raise of partner's minor show 3 or 4? Does it show extras?

 

I play it shows at least 4-card support as partner may only have a 4-card suit.

 

4) Does bidding a new suit above 2M show extras?

 

This is how I play - a problem with 2/1 is when both sides fail to limit their hand, and this is a good way of fixing that problem.

 

5) What should we play a jump in a new suit as? (e.g. 1S-2D-3H).

 

I prefer this to be a splinter.

 

6) What other questions should I discuss with a regular partner.

 

As EricK says, finding some way of understanding the strength of the hands. Serious NT (see Fred's Articles in the BBO Library) is very useful. Having some limit auctions, like the 2NT rebid above, also helps. Playing either Principle of Fast Arrival or Picture Jumps - for example, what do 1S-2H-4H or 1S-2D-2H-4S show?

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

PS - Free, liked the formatting

[cherdano]

Here are some simple questions about openers rebid in a (gameforcing) 2/1 auction. I'd like to know what the modern style is.

3) Does a raise of partner's minor show 3 or 4? Does it show extras?

(I guess you know my opinion on this...)

I like Fred Gitelman's argument that you need a balanced game forcing bid. Personally I often play 2NT as balanced 12-14 or 18-20 (but I know it's probably better to include it as an option in 2♣). Then responders 2/1 suit is usually a good 5cd suit, and you can freely raise with 3 cards. This means the catch-all bid has to catch a lot less.

[luke warm]

i agree with most everyone on all except #5... i see no need for this to show 5/5 in the majors, we're already in a gf auction.. bid 2h with a view to bidding 3h later if 5/5, reserving it for diamond splinter seems better

[EricK]

With 30+ points between the hands, there is not so much need for space below 3NT.

I find that available space if properly exploited is seldom worthless.

I dislike using the 4 level to investigate strain. If I can get the shape definitions across at the 3 level then I am much happier looking for other features at the 4 and 5 level, even with 30+ combined values.

OK, you are right about available space rarely being worthless. What I should have said was that I think it is a more helpful use of space to differentiate opener's strengths.

 

With the NT rebids, there is not that much more shape information to get across, is there? Opener will be 5332 with a doubleton or weak trebleton in partner's suit (I suppose that rarely he might be 5422 with a weak 4 card minor and strong unbid doubleton)

 

Eric

[1eyedjack]

With the NT rebids, there is not that much more shape information to get across, is there? Opener will be 5332 with a doubleton or weak trebleton in partner's suit (I suppose that rarely he might be 5422 with a weak 4 card minor and strong unbid doubleton)

You may be right about opener. Responder however can have a wide range of distributions. Identifying (eg) the presence and location of responder's singleton is of value. If opener has KQx opposite he gets the shivers re. slam interest. With Axx it could be a shot of amyl nitrate.

 

Furthermore, in another thread somewhere I mentioned the iterative process of system design. Once you have optimised the continuations following the 2N rebid given a particular definition of the 2N rebid it gives you an opportunity to review the definition of the 2N rebid to see whether it can be relaxed without significantly impairing the accuracy of the continuations on which you have settled. I found that it was possible to relax the definition, and this in turn had beneficial effects on the accuracy of continuations following a NON-2N rebid, which is consequentially more narrowly defined.

 

There are also some systems that only promise a 4 card major for the 1M opener, so (for example) 1H-2m-2N could be 4-4 in the majors, and even playing 5 card majors the sequence 1D-2C-2N can contain an unbid 4 card major. I realise that 4 card major systems are not the subject of this particular forum.

 

It has also been mentioned in other threads that an inverted minor raise should normally deny the presence of a 4 card major. That is easily the most popular treatment, and it certainly makes the continuations easier following an inverted minor raise. It also makes the continuations more difficult following a 1M responses. I have found that it is not so hard to find the right contract after an inverted minor raise that could have a 4 card major (with GF values), but one of the challenges is the continuations when opener is balanced. I have found that if opener can be relied upon to rebid 2N when balanced the problems are surmountable.

 

I do see that splitting opener's strength between 2N and 3N rebid is valuable information. I don't see how it is possible to mount a cogent argument as to the relative merits of the two approaches without going into it at considerable length, so I guess we shall just have to agree to differ on that point.

[twcho]

I play 2/1 GF unless rebid minor with my favourite pd and the style is as follows, though not the mainstream:

 

1) Does rebidding your major show extra lenth, or is it a catch-all?

 

Yes, promise 6+ cards and strength undisclosed yet

 

2) Does rebidding 2NT show a balanced hand? Stoppers in the unbid suits? or is it a catch all?

 

A catch all bid.

 

3) Does a raise of partner's minor show 3 or 4? Does it show extras?

 

shows at least Qxx support and extra value.

 

4) Does bidding a new suit above 2M show extras?

 

If bid at 2 level, it does not promise extra while at 3 level yes.

 

5) What should we play a jump in a new suit as? (e.g. 1S-2D-3H).

 

Splinter. 55 just bid at the cheapest level and rebid the 2nd suit

 

6) What other questions should I discuss with a regular partner.

 

The most important thing imo is the bidding style. e.g. Light or solid opening, preemptive style, etc.

[EricK]

i agree with most everyone on all except #5... i see no need for this to show 5/5 in the majors, we're already in a gf auction.. bid 2h with a view to bidding 3h later if 5/5, reserving it for diamond splinter seems better

The way like to play it, a jump does not simply show 5-5, it shows two good 5 card suits, and some slam interest. With a weaker 5-5, one bids and rebids the suit. It is all to do with being able to show some slam interest below the level of game.

 

With a splinter, there is less need to show it immediately (your comment that we are already in a GF auction applies equally here!). One can simply raise the minor with support and a few extras (with a minimum opening and support go via a catch-all 2M then delayed support), and then responder can bid a new suit to show values there and opener can see if there is any wastage.

 

Eric

[luke warm]

that's true, even if diamond support and a stiff we *are* in a game force... however, i think the general consensus is that often a slam is more likely, with fewer highcard points, when 2 hands fit and one has a short suit... anyway, both methods are obviously playable

[EricK]

that's true, even if diamond support and a stiff we *are* in a game force... however, i think the general consensus is that often a slam is more likely, with fewer highcard points, when 2 hands fit and one has a short suit... anyway, both methods are obviously playable

I agree both methods are playable.

 

There are two sorts of low HCP slams which are easily missed. Those with a shortage opposite a weak suit, and those with two running suits and sufficient controls outside. One method will make finding one sort easier, the other helps with the other sort.

 

I have never seen any research done as to which type is more common!

 

Eric

[Trpltrbl]

There are different approaches to all, just discuss what you want to play with your pd.

 

Mike :ph34r: