cherdano Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 Suppose your partner dealt you[hv=d=n&v=n&s=sqxhxdjxxcakjt9xx]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv]and opens 1♠, pass, your bid. You play 2/1 absolut game force and invitational jumps. Your bid? (I post this because I was surprised by the replies on RGG on this, which got me curious whether we would get a consensus on this here...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 I can't vote, cause I don't care about ZAR points schmoints. I just bid 2♣ since this is a CLEAR GF imo... I don't need any evaluation method for this decision :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 Ok, I have to admit for me this is an easy 1NT forcing. The reason being, my partner and I open very light, and even hands sligthly stronger than this do not start with 2♣. However, I suspect most 2/1 willl bid 2♣ with this hand, and that is ok with me. Playing with anyone but my very regular partners I would respond 2♣ as well. How do i separtate moster 1NT hands like this (top of the holding) from weaker ones? The answer depends upon the auction, but 2NT rebids by the 1NT bidder shows a good UNBALANCED hand just like this one, also if partner bids 2♣ over 1NT, I have some extra tools as well to show fit and great hand. (Again, for me, my 2NT rebid here by the 1NT bidder is artificial and shows a very good hand for the auction and not a balanced hand). Sadly for me 3♣ is not an option on this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted August 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 I can't vote, cause I don't care about ZAR points schmoints. I just bid 2♣ since this is a CLEAR GF imo... I don't need any evaluation method for this decision :)Feel Free to ignore the comments :) Think of them like campaign ads in an election -- you vote for the party you agree with despite their horrible ads :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 If an invitational 3C is in the armory, it is difficult to see a hand that qualifies if this one doesn't. It is slightly on the strong side for invitational 3C but then it is a long way to 5C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luis Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 2♣ without doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricK Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 This is a 2♣ bid for me. Swap the majors and (if playing the stated methods) I would bid 3♣. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulhar Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 I'm with EricK. 2C, but if pard had opened 1H, then 3C invitational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 While we wait for the 2♣ resoponses to swamp out all the other options, let's see how I continue with this hand using my modified 1NT "semi-forcing". My 1NT bid 1) never includes 3 card or longer support for partner major, 2) never inludes a balanced hand of good 10 or more points (generally 11 or more) See these threads for more details. Unloading 1NT Drury after first and second seat openings Ok, so best news is if I bid 1NT and partner bids 2♣, I have a leap to 3♠ to show a huge club fit and doubleton ♠ honor, Or I can bid 3NT over 2♣ showing this hand with a doubleton spade and a heart splinter. I can get away with these bids because I don't have balanced hand (3NT no longer natural, so fit) or 3 card spade support (jump to 3♠ has to be club fit and doubleton spade honor). If partner bids 2♠ weak, I can make a game stab with 2NT (unbalanced maximum, forces 3♣... partner bids 3♣ in paradox mode.. bidding clubs only if he doesn't want to go to game opposite a hand like this when my suit is clubs. The same thing if partner bids 2♦ or 2♥, I can bid 2NT with the same paradox type response. If I had weak hand with clubs, I would bid 2♠ or 3♣ or pass (2♠) as the feeling struck me. I can imagine the hand now....Partner holds If partner bids 2♠ (weak and three card fit [hv=s=sakjxxxhxxxdacqtx]133|100|[/hv] My bidding goes.. 1S-1N2C-3N4D-4N6C-P 3N = splinter with 2♠ and excellent clubs4D = kickback (can't use 4C as minorwood here, becasue of chance of need to get out of notrump). So you can bid these things quite aggressively after the fit is found. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flytoox Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 this hand looks like good enough for a game, i bid 2c and plan to bid game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 Interesting. I'm not an expert by any means, but... I bid 1NT, because I think I'm going to need all the space I can get. If we're just going to game, then 2C will do fine. But if I make a slam try, partner needs to know that I've only got one suit stopped. On the other hand...I've never played 3C as invitational- I play it as WJS. So what does 1S-1NT-2C-3C show in this system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 Playing IMPs 2C is clear in my view. Playing MPs with partner who opens light, there is a case for 3C, but I would still bid 2C. Fred GitelmanBridge Base Inc.www.bridgebase.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 While we wait for the 2♣ resoponses to swamp out all the other options, let's see how I continue with this hand using my modified 1NT "semi-forcing". To save me looking it up, if 1NT is semi-forcing I take at that means that it is not actually forcing. So, what sort of hand might opener pass 1NT and are you not worried about missing 3N on such a hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 A semi-forcing 1NT is just that. It meant to be "forcing", but it 1) Denies a fit for openers major (none of that 1NT then jump to 3S stuff). In fact, the way I play this semi-forcing 1NT, responder has at most 2-card-fit. 2) It denies balanced hand with as much as a good 10 hcp. 3) It can include a misfit hand with void, singleton, or doubleton in opener's suit, and a nice long suit of its own. This hand shows in this thread approaches the strongest such hand you could have to use the semi-forcing 1NT. And you hope very much to get to use one of the cool tools to show clubs and doubleton spade honor or clubs, two spades, and splinter in hearts. 4) If opener passes the semi-forcing 1NT there is an excellent chance you are high enough, since it is almost never passed. In general the pass shows 10-12 hcp, very weak spade suit (T or J high), and scattered stuff in the other suits. So far wehn the bidding has gone 1M-1NT-Pass, we have always been a great spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 i have a question... since a 3c response is invitational, what would 1S : 1NT2D,H,S : 3C show? oh btw, i couldn't bid 3C over 1S anyway, because of bergen or maybe a fit jump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 have a question... since a 3c response is invitational, what would 1S : 1NT2D,H,S : 3C A worse C suit. Incidentally, if I don't have an invit 3C then I bid 1N forcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 have a question... since a 3c response is invitational, what would 1S : 1NT2D,H,S : 3C A worse C suit. ty... is there a theoretical advantage to having 1nt then 3c show the weak hand, as opposed to 1s : 3c? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 Yes; we play that 1M 3C shows 2/3 top hons. If opener has 1C hon, it fills the suit and makes 3N a very desirable contract. Going via 1N denies 2/3 top hons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke warm Posted August 2, 2004 Report Share Posted August 2, 2004 ahhhhhhh... ok, makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 3, 2004 Report Share Posted August 3, 2004 I bid 2C here. I have great playing strenght. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trpltrbl Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 I will bid 2♣, only because my Qx of ♠ and singleton ♥.And I am one of few people who can rebid 3♣ as invitational. :ph34r: Mike :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mishovnbg Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 Hand in example is GF(3NT) statisticaly. There is low chances for void ♣, so you make 7 tricks on finesse ♣. Even with light opening your p have statisticaly 10hcp, normaly AKQJ scattered in suits. This mean 1 sure trick for A and 1 more when you take opening lead with your stopper. But question is how to bid it, of course preferable by p, because he hold stoppers.It is impossible to do this playing 2/1 GF without some lie, because 2/1 system sacrificing inv part of 2/1 bids, is very uneffective in most common case of inv responsive hands and lead often to wrong sided NT contracts after 1NT RF. Even clear 2/1 GF bid, which rarely comes, actually does not bring any advantages. Because of above weaknesses you need also ton of gadgets to avoid it and lead to unnecessary complication of system to about 300 pages.I will illustrate my thoughts by given in post example:1♠-2♣(only possible nat GF bid in 2/1),2♠(most common rebid) - 3♣(without lie only possible bid)? Without gadgets continuations here are very unclear. Depending of reponder's intentions bids of opener must be different. If 3♣ establish ♣ suit and show slam try cue bids and serious/frivolous 3NT apply. If 3♣ was for finding best game, then bids are stoppers and deny stopper in unbid suit, which is case in example. Because these 2 possibilities contradict each other, you again need some gadget... What is the solution? IMO - give up playing nat GF responses, switch to transfers and one GF relay :) Misho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 I've seen many people giving up the 2/1 as GF in several sequences, such as 1M 2m2M 3m (that one is more or less standard) or 1S 2m2x 2S = picture bid. Good minor suit, with honest support Misho, care to elaborate a bit on the transfer idea? That sounds interesting and modern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted August 8, 2004 Report Share Posted August 8, 2004 2C for me too, even though I open light. This hand should play well in notrump, spades or clubs. If we go down due to a terrible misfit.. too bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted August 9, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2004 Ok, thanks for the replies. The overwhelming consensus of choosing the game force is what I would have expected. I was surprised that about half the respondents in RGG considered this only an invitational hand (although I didn't remember them to be very light openers).I learned that my surprise might have been shared by others here, but that I should rather treat it as invitational when playing with inquiry, as he seems to open balanced 10/11 counts with a bad 5cd spade suit (that is how I understood your description of the hands that would pass 1NT)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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