Understanding the negative double

[MarkDean]

I was kibitzing some experts and Bart Bramley had this decision (spots approx., forgot vul):

 

[hv=d=n&s=sq7hkqj9dat853cj4]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

1♣* (1♠) ?

*2+

 

He chose double, while I would have bid my long suit. What do y'all think? If you double, where do you draw the line? I assume you would bid 2♦ with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?

[MarkDean]

Oh, and I meant negative double - can I edit the title?

[gwnn]

i like x on this hand. it's not so good. with 6-4 definitely bid diamonds though.

[neilkaz]

I x here since I have 4 good♥ and really want PD to bid them even with 4 small. Now if you clearly weaken my ♥ and strengthen my ♦ I will usually then bid 2♦

[jillybean]

X and I would still X with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx. Oops ignore that, that should be 3♥/2♦ as the others said

[655321]

Bidding diamonds then hearts would show a hand with 4 hearts and longer diamonds. Double (then look for 3NT) would show a balanced hand with 4 hearts.

Not only are our diamonds not great, but we have Qx in their suit, so selling the hand as balanced with 4 hearts seems to me clearly the best description.

 

With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.

[neilkaz]

Bidding diamonds then hearts would show a hand with 4 hearts and longer diamonds.  Double (then look for 3NT) would show a balanced hand with 4 hearts.

Not only are our diamonds not great, but we have Qx in their suit, so selling the hand as balanced with 4 hearts seems to me clearly the best description.

 

With  x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.

Also with that fine hand with the very fine 6 card ♦ suit and stiff in their suit, we are GF+ and hoping for a ♦ slam. I bid 2♦ then also and most clearly.

 

PS.. I'm jealous ..655321's cat is cuter than mine :rolleyes:

[jdonn]

10000% clear double. You have barely a game force, what is so exciting about your ATxxx minor suit compared to your KQJ9 of the unbid major?

[Free]

Obvious Dbl imo

[whereagles]

Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits. That is important in the case 4th player raises to 3♠.

[pooltuna]

I was kibitzing some experts and Bart Bramley had this decision (spots approx., forgot vul):

 

[hv=d=n&s=sq7hkqj9dat853cj4]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

1♣* (1♠) ?

*2+

 

He chose double, while I would have bid my long suit. What do y'all think? If you double, where do you draw the line? I assume you would bid 2♦ with x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?

It makes for an easy raise if the auction continues ....X (P) 1NT (P) so you get to find the best strain and showing ♦ and ♥ stoppers really helps.

[Free]

Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits. That is important in the case 4th player raises to 3♠.

You can always Dbl over 3♠. Still, Dbl immediately gets both suits in the picture, and ♦ aren't that much better than ♥ to start with 2♦.

[gwnn]

Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits.

do you really play X as ♦+♥?

[kfay]

Double shows HEARTS!!! That's it!

[bluecalm]

Americans...

100% double with 4♥ no matter how many points or diamonds you have imo.

 

With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.

 

The problem with such thinking is that in modern bridge there will often be no chance for "then" or "then" will have to come at 4 level which you don't want. The most important thing to show is 4♥ before they jump to 3♠/4♠.

[fred]

With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.

 

The problem with such thinking is that in modern bridge there will often be no chance for "then" or "then" will have to come at 4 level which you don't want. The most important thing to show is 4♥ before they jump to 3♠/4♠.

Disagree.

 

If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.

 

If they are going to jump to 4S regardless of what you do, don't you think that showing diamonds is more important than showing hearts? Aside from that, bidding 2D comes with a bonus - it has a higher minimum strength requirement than DBL.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[bluecalm]

Disagree.

 

If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.

 

I am really not happy with bidding 4♥ unless I have at least 6-4, spade shortness and very offensive hand. I can't imagine bidding 4♥ having only 5-4 no matter how strong my hand is I hope you agree with that.

It's probably one of those things dependent on area. Here in Poland we always double having 4♥. It was necessity when playing negative free bids (standard here) but nowadays people mainly play transfers but still:

 

1♣ - 1♠ - 2♣ (diamonds) usually denies 4♥.

 

On 3 level, for example:

 

1♦ - (2♠) - 3♣ I can't imagine anybody here having 4♥.

 

I've notice people from North America have other views (that's why I started my original post with "americans"...).

[gwnn]

I am really not happy with bidding 4♥ unless I have at least 6-4, spade shortness and very offensive hand.

You mean like x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx?

[gnasher]

It's probably one of those things dependent on area.

It might also be one of those things where one way is clearly better than another.

[fred]

Disagree.

 

If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.

 

I am really not happy with bidding 4♥ unless I have at least 6-4, spade shortness and very offensive hand.

That is a perfect description of the hand you were talking about!

 

I can't imagine bidding 4♥ having only 5-4 no matter how strong my hand is I hope you agree with that.

 

I can imagine it, but we basically agree. For me DBL is just as clear on the 5-4 hand that started this thread as 2D is with the 6-4 hand in question.

 

It is actually not an "American thing". It is a "Standard American thing" :rolleyes:

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[hanp]

Now that everybody agrees I have nothing to add, but:

 

Earlier this week I had 10 AQxx AK108xx Qx and it went 1C - (3S), all red at IMPs. Double or 4D? I bid 4D on automataic pilot but I now think double is quite a bit better.

[peachy]

Mark: dbl is better than 2♦ because you show both suits. That is important in the case 4th player raises to 3♠.

There are more than one ways to play Negative Doubles. The time when it was common that negative double promised both unbid suits, is about 50 years ago.

The current mainstream without agreements - in my observation - is that negative double promises the unbid major (if there is one), one unbid major (if there are two), and both unbid majors ONLY in the auction 1C (1D) Dbl.

 

However, I know I will likely get scorn, but with opening strength or gameforcing hand I prefer to show shape and bid 2D, then later hearts unless partner has denied hearts. The example hand is "on the fence" and I might double.

[ArtK78]

Now that everybody agrees I have nothing to add, but:

 

Earlier this week I had 10 AQxx AK108xx Qx and it went 1C - (3S), all red at IMPs. Double or 4D? I bid 4D on automataic pilot but I now think double is quite a bit better.

I like double.

 

The more interesting question is what action you take over partner's 4♣ rebid - 4♦? 5♣? Something else? Furthermore, is 4♦ natural over 4♣ or a cue bid?

[RichMor]

With x KQJ9 AKT9xx xx you would bid diamonds then hearts.

 

The problem with such thinking is that in modern bridge there will often be no chance for "then" or "then" will have to come at 4 level which you don't want. The most important thing to show is 4♥ before they jump to 3♠/4♠.

Disagree.

 

If they jump to 3S you can bid 4H next.

 

If they are going to jump to 4S regardless of what you do, don't you think that showing diamonds is more important than showing hearts? Aside from that, bidding 2D comes with a bonus - it has a higher minimum strength requirement than DBL.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

Fred,

 

Side question: if the auction goes like this

1♣ - (1♠) - 2♦ - (4♠)

P - (P) - 4NT

does 4NT probably show Hearts ?

 

I think it should.

 

RichM

[fred]

Fred,

 

Side question: if the auction goes like this

1♣ - (1♠) - 2♦ - (4♠)

P - (P) - 4NT

does 4NT probably show Hearts ?

 

I think it should.

 

RichM

My initial reaction is that 4NT suggests at least one other place to play (ie hearts and/or clubs).

 

If you bid 4NT, partner should assume 3-card club support and pick between the minors.

 

If you then correct 5C to 5D, you have diamonds and hearts.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com