How much blame will we find?

[Fluffy]

2♠ promises 6

If you have a good hand you bid 3♠ the round before, if your hand is poor you better bid 4♠ now, wich BTW was the right bid on this hand.

[hanp]

3♣ also forced the auction into this ping-pong match of doubt about strain, although assuming North isn't cuebidding shortness, South really doesn't care.

Now three people have posted that there was doubt about strain but I can't find it, not in the auction and not in Josh's explanation. 3S was natural, and 4D was a cue for spades, end of story.

 

3H worked out poorly just like opening 1S worked out poorly. If you pass initially then you are unlikely to get to slam, but that doesn't make it reasonable to pass.

 

4♠  limits south hand, but North took it as extras and forward going. South meant it as - "I like spades better than hearts".

 

Where do you get this stuff? Shall we assume for a moment that both players are competent, that 4D was a cue for spades, 4H was a cue for spades, and 4S was a sign off? I know, it's hard to imagine giving the 5C call that followed.

[kfay]

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO. If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff). It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

 

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control. Now S can make a good decision. S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

 

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either. But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK? That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

 

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid. Game before slam.

 

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

[pooltuna]

Now three people have posted that there was doubt about strain but I can't find it, not in the auction and not in Josh's explanation. 3S was natural, and 4D was a cue for spades, end of story.

 

Well only North is sure about ♠ and supports after he was supported by South with the 3♥ call. Isn't South supposed to be thinking "North made the 3♣ call to show 5♥ and ask for support"? The answer is apparently not but N ignored the implications to his partner after his partner supported with 3♥ now he thinks 3♠ shows support and his partner thinks it was a ♠ qbid. The auction quickly derailed from here.

[pooltuna]

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO. If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff). It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

 

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control. Now S can make a good decision. S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

 

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either. But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK? That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

 

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid. Game before slam.

 

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

IMO the 3♥ call established the trump suit for South

[kgr]

The easiest part is most interesting for me:

1♠-2♥

2♠-3♣

3♥-3♠

Isn't 3♠ a cue for ♥. Because with ♠ support we could bid?:

1♠-2♥

2♠-3♠

=> How do you define if you are setting trumps or are bidding controls?

[kfay]

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO.  If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff).  It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

 

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control.  Now S can make a good decision.  S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

 

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either.  But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK?  That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

 

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid.  Game before slam.

 

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

IMO the 3♥ call established the trump suit for South

Are you out of your mind? What do you bid with AQJxxx Qx xx Axx?

 

I guess over 3♣ I bid 4♣? Or 3NT promising a ♦ stop? Or 3♠ presumably promising a 7th spade? I guess you must play 3♦ asks for a diamond stop, right?

 

3♥ only promises a doubleton.

 

If that means we're no longer allowed to play in spades (our 8-card fit) and must play in hearts, (our 7-card fit) then I don't want to play this system anymore, thank you.

 

You're assertion is that over 2♠ N must bid 3♠ right away. That's also nuts. Maybe we belong in NT??

 

Sure you can construct hands where we have bidding problems at this point (AQJxxx x xxx AQx) but it's just too restrictive to require 3♥ to show at least 63xx shape. We'll have a lot more problems that way. Just look at this hand, wouldn't we rather play in ♠ than ♥? Yet after 3♥ apparently we have no way to do that.

[kayin801]

North should be shot for not bidding keycard earlier and letting South find such a ridiculous bid as 5♦.

 

RE: most recent discussion, we've definitely set spades as trumps, having the double fit in hearts is just icing on the cake.

[pooltuna]

5♣ is the bid to blame, IMO.  If you're going to cuebid again you should bid 5♥, where I come from 4♥ already promised the ♣K or A (or stiff).  It's not clear to me whether 5♣ should promise AK or just solidifies that it's the ace (S obviously thinks the latter), but whatever it is N doesn't have it.

 

So if you're going to be bold bid 5♥, comfortable in the fact that you've well shown your club control.  Now S can make a good decision.  S, I'm sure, thought N had the ♣A and that his extra club was going on the hearts so no blame, I think....

 

That said I'm not a fan of the 5♦ bid either.  But perhaps a genius S was giving N a chance to cuebid their ♥AK?  That seems reasonable but kinda smacks of masterminding.

 

By the way, for those of you wondering... 3♠ is not a cuebid.  Game before slam.

 

For the rest of you, 4♥ is a cuebid for ♠.

IMO the 3♥ call established the trump suit for South

Are you out of your mind? What do you bid with AQJxxx Qx xx Axx?

 

I guess over 3♣ I bid 4♣? Or 3NT promising a ♦ stop? Or 3♠ presumably promising a 7th spade? I guess you must play 3♦ asks for a diamond stop, right?

 

3♥ only promises a doubleton.

 

If that means we're no longer allowed to play in spades (our 8-card fit) and must play in hearts, (our 7-card fit) then I don't want to play this system anymore, thank you.

 

You're assertion is that over 2♠ N must bid 3♠ right away. That's also nuts. Maybe we belong in NT??

 

Sure you can construct hands where we have bidding problems at this point (AQJxxx x xxx AQx) but it's just too restrictive to require 3♥ to show at least 63xx shape. We'll have a lot more problems that way. Just look at this hand, wouldn't we rather play in ♠ than ♥? Yet after 3♥ apparently we have no way to do that.

perhaps I should have typed 3♥ established trump in South's mind. With the hand you provided what is stopping S from calling 3♦ as a clear (to me anyway) ask for a ♦ stopper? This also reduces the need to raise ♥ with a doubleton.

[mike777]

Prefer 3s not 3c.

 

then south can cue 4d....and north can bid 4nt or 4hcue which south would rebid 4s; after this north could bid 4nt rkc.

 

 

given the OP auction I would still 4nt over 4s not 5c.

[jdonn]

Lol it's never possible to be clear enough in the opening post I guess, except for hanp and arend who I thank for injecting a shred of sanity into the discussion. All of the following are apparently relevent facts for this partnership (and they are indeed facts).

 

- 3♥ is usually a doubleton since south would usually raise right away with 3, thus it does not establish trumps. If north wants hearts to be trumps after 3♥ he must bid 4♦ or 4♥.

- Raising spades right away would promise 3 even though 2♠ promised 6.

- The 4♦ bid absolutely established spades as trumps, there was no ambiguity about that in the mind of either player.

 

I posted this as an evaluation problem. Now that being said, north didn't pass 4♠ because he thought south could still have a hand like AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South bid 6 at the end for reasons already stated by han of the 7th spade and fitting queens in the context of having already signed off once. Thoughts?

 

Simplifying: North played south for AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South played north for Kx AKxxx xx Axxx. Who was wrong?

[hanp]

I gave the south hand to my girlfriend. Not the north hand because north's bidding was not interesting to me.

 

She bid 2S then 3H, and then after 3S thought it was close between 4D and 4S, she could live with 4D. Then a clear 4S over 4H.

 

When partner bid 5C she was not sure what partner was looking for. She didn't want to sign off and eventually settled for 5H, which I agree is a much better bid than 5D.

[neilkaz]

Lol it's never possible to be clear enough in the opening post I guess, except for hanp and arend who I think for injecting a shred of sanity into the discussion. All of the following are apparently relevent facts for this partnership (and they are indeed facts).

 

- 3♥ is usually a doubleton since south would usually raise right away with 3, thus it does not establish trumps. If north wants hearts to be trumps after 3♥ he must bid 4♦ or 4♥.

- Raising spades right away would promise 3 even though 2♠ promised 6.

- The 4♦ bid absolutely established spades as trumps, there was no ambiguity about that in the mind of either player.

 

I posted this as an evaluation problem. Now that being said, north didn't pass 4♠ because he thought south could still have a hand like AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South bid 6 at the end for reasons already stated by han of the 7th spade and fitting queens in the context of having already signed off once. Thoughts?

 

Simplifying: North played south for AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South played north for Kx AKxxx xx Axxx. Who was wrong?

Once again I must say that like most others here I wonder why North bid 5♣ rather than RKCB which would tell him how many aces South has.

[hotShot]

Once again I must say that like most others here I wonder why North bid 5♣ rather than RKCB which would tell him how many aces South has.

I think the problem is that responder holding KT AK9xx Jx Kxxx did not expect partner to hold a single ♦. to him it is more likely that partner really holds an A or Kx(x) in ♦. He does not know about the 7th ♠ and 3rd ♥. Responder wants to hear about the 2nd ♦ keycard and the best way to get there is allowing for the 5♦ cue bid.

[Apollo81]

Simplifying: North played south for AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. South played north for Kx AKxxx xx Axxx. Who was wrong?

IMO North is wrong. There's no way I'm bidding 4♠ with that South hand once North bids 4♥.

[Phil]

I honestly didn't notice the 2♠ promising 6, sorry. I still think 2N goes a long way toard getting us to the right spot here.

 

However, I don't think its playable for 3♠ to show xx, sorry Han, any more than a subsequent 4♦ bid is somehow trying to unearth a 4-4 fit.

 

At some point we need to actually agree trump, instead of having a feel-good chat session about our hands.

 

I just don't get 4♦ 'agreeing spades'. What would responder do with: K, AKQxx, AQxx, xxx? Maybe someone smarter than me can shed some light.

[nigel_k]

No problem with the auction up to 4♠.

 

At that point it seems to me that if you cue bid first or second round controls and North bids on, bypassing Blackwood, then you are at serious risk of this kind of thing happening when both players have extras but there is wastage and you are off two key cards. Maybe outstanding judgement all the time can avoid it but I'd rather not put myself under that pressure.

 

On the actual hand slam should be avoided. North has already shown a club control by not signing off after 4♦. Therefore he should cue bid 5♥ not 5♣ and South should conclude at that point that Kx AKxxx xx Axxx is too much to hope for and/or partner might have bid 5♣ with that hand.

[P_Marlowe]

South basically denied 3 hearts, so South cant have the Hand, which North

envisioned, so AQJxxx Qxx Axx x is impossible.

 

Also x vs. Kxxx is also not a brilliant holding, since the king is wastage.

 

Of course North expected a stronger South hand, due to the 4D bid.

 

I think South should find a different bid than 2S, maybe 3S or 4S, the way

South did bid, he decided that he wanted to hide the primary heart support,

which is ok, but than he should have shown the 7th spade, which he did not,

I suspect, he could have shown the 7th spade with 3S or 4S.

I would assume that 3S would show a max.

 

So all in all I give South most of the blame.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[jdonn]

I just don't get 4♦ 'agreeing spades'. What would responder do with: K, AKQxx, AQxx, xxx? Maybe someone smarter than me can shed some light.

Why shouldn't responder want to agree spades opposite what may be stiff K? When I say "agree" I don't mean we couldn't play in another suit anyway, just that bids of other suits at the 4 and 5 level are cuebids and that we have a suit for keycard. That is important to establish. We can definitely get back to other suits, through 5NT pick a slam bids or a player eventually jumping to slam in another suit.

[mike777]

IF 3s over 2s shows 3 card support then prefer 2nt to 3c then over 3h I can rebid 3s.

 

now opener rebids 4s or 4d........I would pass 4s......over 4d then 4h...4s...4nt again not 5c.

 

It seems to keep coming back to north error not south.

 

-----

 

 

side note if 1s then 2s could be liteish....I would just fast arrival with 4s over 2 assuming we are not playing picture bids.

[JLOL]

1S: auto

2H: auto

2S: With 7 good and 3 not-so-good this is fine, raising hearts directly will too often lead to the wrong major suit game.

3C: Terrible, this shape should rebid 2N if 3M promises 3. Personally I used to think 3M should promise 3 until playing with a lot of good players who think it can be HH doubleton and a primed out hand and a ruffing value (much like this hand). Either way 3C sucks.

3H: Almost always shows a doubleton (honor). The only time you bid 2S with 3 hearts is 7 good spades.

3S: Normal, could be stiff K but usually hsows a doubleton.

4D: Perfectly fine esp in precision. As little as K AKxxx xxx Axxx is slam. Obviously sets spades. there's no setting heartts in this auction when you almost surely have 8 spades and 7 hearts.

4H: last train. This is fine with a primed out hand.

4S: Sign off, only 1 KC+Q and a bunch of queens. 4D was enough.

 

So far a perfect auction. The other hand was crazy to bid over that.

[whereagles]

justin, that's a fine example of how to mess up a simple hand:

 

1♠ 2♥

2♠ 4♠

 

It's precision, and opener didn't even bid 3♠. Where do you think you're going?

[jdonn]

1S: auto

2H: auto

2S: With 7 good and 3 not-so-good this is fine, raising hearts directly will too often lead to the wrong major suit game.

3C: Terrible, this shape should rebid 2N if 3M promises 3. Personally I used to think 3M should promise 3 until playing with a lot of good players who think it can be HH doubleton and a primed out hand and a ruffing value (much like this hand). Either way 3C sucks.

3H: Almost always shows a doubleton (honor). The only time you bid 2S with 3 hearts is 7 good spades.

3S: Normal, could be stiff K but usually hsows a doubleton.

4D: Perfectly fine esp in precision. As little as K AKxxx xxx Axxx is slam. Obviously sets spades. there's no setting heartts in this auction when you almost surely have 8 spades and 7 hearts.

4H: last train. This is fine with a primed out hand.

4S: Sign off, only 1 KC+Q and a bunch of queens. 4D was enough.

 

So far a perfect auction. The other hand was crazy to bid over that.

How about south's 5♦ vs 5♥ instead at that point?

[jdonn]

justin, that's a fine example of how to mess up a simple hand:

 

1♠ 2♥

2♠ 4♠

 

It's precision, and opener didn't even bid 3♠. Where do you think you're going?

To slam? AQJxxxx Qxx Ax x. AQJxxx Qxx Axx x. AQJxxxx Qx x Axx. QJxxxxx Qx A Axx.

[mikegill]

not to mention that (at least for me) 3♠ shows a solid suit and sets trumps...