judgement

[lmilne]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sxhaxxxdaxckqj9xx]133|100|[/hv]

 

You open 1♣ (2+), LHO overcalls 4♠, partner doubles.

If scoring matters, say so.

[dake50]

Key-ask then 6C/5C. My best guess.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=sxhaxxxdaxckqj9xx]133|100|[/hv]

 

You open 1♣ (2+), LHO overcalls 4♠, partner doubles.

If scoring matters, say so.

too many different hands for partner. pass and take the plus(well probable plus)

[Cascade]

Key-ask then 6C/5C. My best guess.

In what suit?

 

Is 4NT clearly a key card ask? Don't think it would be for me.

[mikegill]

I would bid 5♣. You have wayyyy more shape than partner has a right to expect when he doubled. I think 4NT shows clubs and a shorter side suit anyway, but partner will expect diamonds. Plus my clubs are so much better than my hearts so I want to play in clubs. If partner is the type who would double 4♠ with just spade tricks then yeah maybe I would pass.

[655321]

I would just bid 6♣.

 

It is easy to construct hands where hearts make more tricks than clubs, so something like 5NT and correcting 6♦ to 6♥ is possible, but there is still too much to find out about - how good partner's hearts are, and does he have both Aces. So I just make the simple bid, sometimes making 11 tricks and sometimes making 13 tricks, but hopefully making at least 12 tricks often enough.

 

I would never pass the double with this hand.

[Cascade]

Dealer: South Vul: N/S Scoring: Unknown

♠ x ♥ Axxx ♦ Ax ♣ KQJ9xx

 

You open 1♣ (2+), LHO overcalls 4♠, partner doubles.

If scoring matters, say so.

too many different hands for partner. pass and take the plus(well probable plus)

This doesn't seem right when we have extra distribution and a little extra strength.

[lmilne]

If partner is the type who would double 4♠ with just spade tricks then yeah maybe I would pass.

I try not to play with too many horrible partners :lol:

 

4NT would not be keycard for us, no matter how much you want it to be.

[aguahombre]

do you have any idea how much I hate 6♣. Do you care?

 

I will try 6♣. Mainly, because I don't think it is making 5.

[Codo]

4 NT followed by 5 Heart would be nice if this shows this hand. Unlucky, we all agreed that this shows a hand too strong for a direct 5 Heart bid in other situations. I would try it anyway, no matter how my partner understands this bid, I have the fitting hand.

[Fluffy]

5NT is also an option isn't it?, I don't play that convention but seems to fit.

 

Anyway 655321's arguments about heart quality has convinced me that 6♣ is better, for the only hand were we discard dummy's diamond on our clubs there are many others were we discard our hearts in his diamonds.

[jdonn]

I'll bid 4NT to choose between clubs and hearts, I'm not going to force to slam. I have only a little more than the minimum playing strength I would want to pull the double so I feel bidding slam myself is a clear overbid.

[Phil]

6♣. It might be make (rightly or wrongly), or they might sac at these colors.

 

I expect a working 10 count for the x.

[mikeh]

I like Josh's approach, but wouldn't do it: I don't want to play in a 4-4 fit at the 5 level.....not after LHO showed that the suits aren't likely to be breaking.

 

As for forcing to slam...all I can say is that your partners hold more cards than mine do. While the double denies a spade stack, it isn't unusual for partner to have some spade wastage in his 10 points or so...after all, he expects you to pass more often than you will pull, if only because you rate to hold a balanced or semi-balanced hand more often than a 6-4 or some such.

 

Kxx KJxx Q10xx Ax? That's a 13 count with a sure(?) pitch for our diamond loser, and slam still awful....whether in hearts or clubs.

 

I content myself with 5♣.

 

Give me x AJxx Ax KQ10xxx and I'd vote for 4N.

[jdonn]

I like Josh's approach, but wouldn't do it: I don't want to play in a 4-4 fit at the 5 level.....not after LHO showed that the suits aren't likely to be breaking.

People don't seem to realize that partner can easily have 5 hearts. Heck he can be 2551.

 

But certainly 5♣ is a better bid than 5♥, that is true. Partner could have 3 hearts too.

[mikegill]

Maybe at matchpoints I would think about 4N hoping to get to hearts when it's right, but at IMPs it seems wrong to me. It's hard to imagine hearts being much better of a contract unless partner has 4 more hearts than clubs, and even then, it still might be better to play in clubs (give him xxx Jxxxx KQJx A) Anyway, 5♥ could be a disaster and doubled if partner with 2443, 3442 3361, 4351, etc and weak hearts chooses to bid 5♦ over 4N not realizing the decision he's actually making. 5♣ will almost never be a disaster even if partner has a stiff because we have a suit that is hard to double and has hardly any losers even if it is doubled. Make the clubs a weaker or the hearts a little stronger and now 4N would be my choice.

[jdonn]

If partner doesn't understand bridge and bids 5♦ on a hand with 3 hearts then I hope this teaches him a lesson?

[mikeh]

I like Josh's approach, but wouldn't do it: I don't want to play in a 4-4 fit at the 5 level.....not after LHO showed that the suits aren't likely to be breaking.

People don't seem to realize that partner can easily have 5 hearts. Heck he can be 2551.

 

But certainly 5♣ is a better bid than 5♥, that is true. Partner could have 3 hearts too.

This version of people understands that partner COULD have 5 hearts. What some people don't seem to understand (joke)is that he doesn't HAVE to have 5♥ in order to choose 5♦ over 4N. Therefore, when we bid 4N, we are inviting him to bid 5♦ anytime he has 4+ in both reds, which in turn means that we will OFTEN play a 4-4 heart fit...and that is a risk I don't want to take. My decision was not based on being ignorant of basic bridge. I may be and have often proved to be ignorant of many things, but this isn't one of them.

 

BTW, while I agree that partner should strain not to bid 5♦ without 4 hearts, what should he do with say Qxx Axx KQxxxx x? Should he pass 4♠ with that? Or bid 5♦ immediately? Since I made the hand up to raise a point, I'm not sure what he should do, but I don't think that doubling then 5♦ is clearly an error.....since he would have been right to expect that the double would be left in more often than not, and that passing might well end the auction.

[Cascade]

Sure partner might bid 5♦ with 4=4 in the reds but he might also be able to bid 5♣ with that hand.

[jdonn]

Perhaps I was harsh since I did know you understood partner can have 5 hearts. I guess then where I'm confused is this. If a 4-4 fit is dangerous at the 5 level on this auction, and we make a bid showing 6 clubs and 4 of a red suit, and partner is 4-4 in the red suits, why are we worried he will choose the 4-4 fit instead of 5♣? Surely we aren't the only member of the partnership who possesses this knowledge of how 4-4 fits play.

 

Now yes, partner might be 4-5 (or 5-4!) in the red suits and then bid 5♦. But the longer he is in the red suits the shorter he is in clubs. Surely with 3 clubs he will choose the known 9 card fit over a possible 8 card fit, so it seems to me the one real gain of bidding 5♣ is partner being 2452 or 1462. Now even though playing hearts opposite those hardly has to be a disaster it's true I would get to hearts when I'd tend to prefer clubs. That is a reason to bid 5♣ which is hardly a nullo bid. But I would rather make the bid that finds more 9 card heart fits and fewer 7 card club fits than the bid that chooses what I think will be the better of two 8 card fit. Maybe it's just my general nature to choose the flexible bid even if both options have winning cases.

[mikeh]

Perhaps I was harsh since I did know you understood partner can have 5 hearts. I guess then where I'm confused is this. If a 4-4 fit is dangerous at the 5 level on this auction, and we make a bid showing 6 clubs and 4 of a red suit, and partner is 4-4 in the red suits, why are we worried he will choose the 4-4 fit instead of 5♣? Surely we aren't the only member of the partnership who possesses this knowledge of how 4-4 fits play.

 

Now yes, partner might be 4-5 (or 5-4!) in the red suits and then bid 5♦. But the longer he is in the red suits the shorter he is in clubs. Surely with 3 clubs he will choose the known 9 card fit over a possible 8 card fit, so it seems to me the one real gain of bidding 5♣ is partner being 2452 or 1462. Now even though playing hearts opposite those hardly has to be a disaster it's true I would get to hearts when I'd tend to prefer clubs. That is a reason to bid 5♣ which is hardly a nullo bid. But I would rather make the bid that finds more 9 card heart fits and fewer 7 card club fits than the bid that chooses what I think will be the better of two 8 card fit. Maybe it's just my general nature to choose the flexible bid even if both options have winning cases.

how would opener rebid with 0=4=4=5? Admittedly a low percentage holding, but clearly a 4N bid. And the likelihood of this hand type is increased by the 4♠ bid. Or with 5=6 red/clubs? Admittedly, on this last, finding a 6=3 club fit is usually going to be ok, even if not perfect, compared to a 5=4 or 5=5 red suit fit.

 

However, I agree that responder should generally choose 5♣ with 3 card support.

 

I guess it really comes down to my feeling that a unilateral 5♣ call is less prone to a bad outcome than 4N, since I think that we rate to hold 8+ clubs even when we hold 8+ hearts, and when we hold exactly 8 card fits, clubs will be safer than hearts. I can't quantify this feeling, in terms of frequency.

 

I freely admit that 5♣ can be a disaster (partner has 2=5=5=1 is one possibility) but I know you'd admit that 5♥ can be inferior even if he holds 4 of them.

 

I don't think a simulation would help because of uncertainty about 4♠, double, and how he'd advance over our 4N.

[gnasher]

I don't think opener's 4NT promises six clubs: he could well be 1(43)5. Hence with 3442 responder will usually bid 5♦.

 

I also don't think responder can be 3361 - it hardly takes a psychic to predict what will happen if you double 4♠ with that shape.

 

When will it cost to reach 5♥? We have ♦A, so they're probably not going to be able to cut us off from the clubs. I think that the two main risks are:

(1) - Partner is 3442 or 2452; we have one or more trump losers in hearts, partner has sufficient diamond winners to throw the heart loser(s) away if they aren't trumps; in 5♣, they couldn't have arranged to take a heart ruff.

(2) Partner is 3442 or 2452 with ♣10x; clubs are 4-1 so that they can take a club ruff against 5♥.

 

When will it gain to bid 4NT? When partner has a singleton club - 2551 or 3(45)1, clubs don't break, and he passes 5♣. (I'm not sure how often he'd remove to 5♦ with 2551; possibly never.)

 

The singleton club doesn't seem that likely to me, so I think the risks of 4NT outweigh the risks of 5♣, but I changed my mind whilst writing this post. I'm not sure if that means that it's close, or just that I can't think coherently without writing things down.

[mikegill]

I don't think opener's 4NT promises six clubs: he could well be 1(43)5. Hence with 3442 responder will usually bid 5♦.

 

Would we really always pull the double with 1(43)5? Surely this is less likely at least. With defensive high cards I think I would pass.

 

I also don't think responder can be 3361 - it hardly takes a psychic to predict what will happen if you double 4♠ with that shape.

 

What else can you do with a 3361 and bad diamonds? You can't bid e.g. KTxxxx by yourself at the 5-level when partner's shape remains essentially unknown.

 

I think a third major risk of 4NT isn't just that hearts has more losers that clubs, but that when things are breaking badly it will frequently be doubled (give RHO KJT8 or something behind whatever dummy has) and down 2.

[gnasher]

Would we really always pull the double with 1(43)5?

I would, except perhaps with a singleton ace of spades. But I probaby play the double as more takeout-oriented than you do.

 

What else can you do with a 3361 and bad diamonds?  You can't bid e.g. KTxxxx by yourself at the 5-level when partner's shape remains essentially unknown.

You pass and wait to see if partner makes a takeout double. If he doesn't, it's unlikely that you've missed a game.

[mikegill]

You pass and wait to see if partner makes a takeout double. If he doesn't, it's unlikely that you've missed a game.

 

Well yes, but what if you have a good enough hand that passing is obviously wrong.