Void

[CSGibson]

[hv=d=n&v=b&s=sa842hj9753dcaqj5]133|100|Scoring: IMP

1♦-(1♥)-X-(p),

5♦-(P)-?[/hv]

 

Context - 2/1 system, partner cannot make any artificial game force, though cue-bid is possible, I guess. Teams of 4 in a home match as a GNT practice session, this is the flight B team vs the flight A team (opps are A).

 

Agree with negative double last time? Do you pass or raise now?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Assuming 1S showes a 5 carder, X was your only reasonable bid.

 

Now I pass.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

I think 0-10 tricks is more likely than 12 tricks. Yea yea yea, that's just another reason for raising yea yea yea.

 

pass.

[andy_h]

Pass, I fear two losers in the red suit(s).

[pooltuna]

6♦ I do have a lot more values than I could have

[gszeszycki]

Dealer: North

Vul: Both

Scoring: IMP

♠ A842

♥ J9753

♦

♣ AQJ5

1♦-(1♥)-X-(p),

5♦-(P)-?

 

The bidding can eliminate hands with solid dia (since our x showed sp/cl opener had an easy 3h bid asking for a stop if they held say Kx void AKQJxxxx xx

or some such. What minimum kind of hand did we need to x in the first place?

Kxxx

xxx

xx

Kxxx

more less? the answer to that question should answer whatto do next. If we feel we have the minimum pass since we are fairly certain p has at least 1 dia loser. If your minimum is like my minimum (shown) then we have to bid 6d since we are way above minimum and any reasonable 5d bid by p should give us play for 6d. We cannot bid their cards only ours and trust they bid theirs properly.

[andy_h]

I think this is a bit of a guess since apparently partner can't make any artificial game forces. We also don't know what 3♥ by partner would be (splinter agreeing spades?) and also what 4♦ would be (6♦4♠? long diamonds?)

 

I don't quite regard this hand as "I could have a lot more values than I have so therefore I raise", but it's the meaning of 5♦ that creates the uncertainty. For example is it the likes of

K x AKJ10xxxx Kxx or -- xx AKQxxxxxx Kx or KQx -- AKQJxxx Kxx. I agree that we do have a few aces up our sleeves, but if we have a heart loser and partner's diamonds are long but not solid then slam isn't looking so good.

[hanp]

The first question that comes to mind is, is partner a complete idiot or not?

[gwnn]

As our hand is getting better and better, our side's expected combined assets grow slower than our hand. I am not sure if this is relevant here but I thought I'd just throw this out there.

[hanp]

Yeah it is irrelevant but it does make you look really smart Csaba. ♥

[CSGibson]

The first question that comes to mind is, is partner a complete idiot or not?

This is a competent partner, definitely not a complete or incomplete idiot, but we haven't played much together (she was an addition to our team after one of our other players couldn't go, which is one of the reasons for this home practice match).

[jjbrr]

I'd just pass.

[Apollo81]

Good luck partner.

[Phil]

Pass.

 

I don't think partner has solid diamonds. Does he have a 1st round heart control? Hell if I know.

 

After the hand I will gently explain how a cue bid followed by a ♦ call is forcing.

[neilkaz]

Pass.

 

I don't think partner has solid diamonds. Does he have a 1st round heart control? Hell if I know.

 

After the hand I will gently explain how a cue bid followed by a ♦ call is forcing.

Pass also.. noting that pard didn't open 2♣. Agreed cube followed by 4♦ is very forcing.

 

I hope he makes this.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[wank]

if my opps raised to 6c on this auction i'd call the director - either they've seen the hand records, or i can get average plus for the round after they fail the drug test.

[dake50]

Feels as if I have AQJ above minimum neg-X, 6D.

[Crunch3nt]

Partner is a good player and yet has made a very unusual call. Not going via 2H at least is very odd. What could compel a competent partner to avoid 3NT so promptly and take away all our room? Only a heart void and extreme shape something like 3082 with a 1 loser suit in diamonds eg KQx - AQJ10xxxx xx

 

I raise to 6D. I think not raising is an insult to your partner.

[CSGibson]

Partner is a good player and yet has made a very unusual call. Not going via 2H at least is very odd. What could compel a competent partner to avoid 3NT so promptly and take away all our room? Only a heart void and extreme shape something like 3082 with a 1 loser suit in diamonds eg KQx - AQJ10xxxx xx

 

I raise to 6D. I think not raising is an insult to your partner.

You got this almost exactly right. Partner has:

 

[hv=s=sqxxhdakt8xxxxckx]133|100|[/hv]

 

Making 6 easily on 3-2 diamonds and a heart lead.

 

Quick question: If you were to get a low spade lead, instead of the ace of hearts, would you be inclined to run it to the queen, or play for the long diamond hand to have at least 3 clubs?

[aguahombre]

Making 6 easily on 3-2 diamonds and a heart lead. 

 

Quick question:  If you were to get a low spade lead, instead of the ace of hearts, would you be inclined to run it to the queen, or play for the long diamond hand to have at least 3 clubs?

That question is not quick. Opening leader made vul overcall. You are missing AKQ of hearts. Feels like righty must have the K (no heart lead). Righty was silent. but, do they play Rosencranz? Do they use it with KX and out? Overcaller is a favorite to have the spade King, but........

 

My guess is that both lines work :)

[gwnn]

Partner had a heart void. That's not %. If he does not have a heart void he should have a solid suit opposite our known void. That's not % either, even if we combine it with the last "not %" clause.

[andy_h]

I don't quite buy the argument that "because partner is a good player therefore they must have a heart void". First of all we don't even know what partner think of us like if they trust to know if the auction will go smoothly if they started with a 2♥ cuebid. 8(+) card minors are well known to be tough hands to bid because there are many options available (5m opening, 1m-5m, 1m-2m-4m, 1m-2m-5m, 1m-3m-4m, 1m-3m-5m etc), so could partner not be making life simple? Given the actual hand, could they not have bid the same way with Kx x AKxxxxxx Kx or maybe a 9 card suit of Kx K AQJxxxxxx x? We're also informed that the partnership has not played much together so that argues more for simplicity.

[pooltuna]

I don't quite buy the argument that "because partner is a good player therefore they must have a heart void". First of all we don't even know what partner think of us like if they trust to know if the auction will go smoothly if they started with a 2♥ cuebid. 8(+) card minors are well known to be tough hands to bid because there are many options available (5m opening, 1m-5m, 1m-2m-4m, 1m-2m-5m, 1m-3m-4m, 1m-3m-5m etc), so could partner not be making life simple? Given the actual hand, could they not have bid the same way with Kx x AKxxxxxx Kx or maybe a 9 card suit of Kx K AQJxxxxxx x? We're also informed that the partnership has not played much together so that argues more for simplicity.

Partner bid 5♦ on the assumption that our negative double showed some ♠ and ♣ cards and we have a lot more that he should have expected. Do you not think he is bidding to make? IMO he was and missing 2 black aces I find it very unlikely that he has ♥ losers.

[andy_h]

I don't quite buy the argument that "because partner is a good player therefore they must have a heart void". First of all we don't even know what partner think of us like if they trust to know if the auction will go smoothly if they started with a 2♥ cuebid. 8(+) card minors are well known to be tough hands to bid because there are many options available (5m opening, 1m-5m, 1m-2m-4m, 1m-2m-5m, 1m-3m-4m, 1m-3m-5m etc), so could partner not be making life simple? Given the actual hand, could they not have bid the same way with Kx x AKxxxxxx Kx or maybe a 9 card suit of Kx K AQJxxxxxx x? We're also informed that the partnership has not played much together so that argues more for simplicity.

Partner bid 5♦ on the assumption that our negative double showed some ♠ and ♣ cards and we have a lot more that he should have expected. Do you not think he is bidding to make? IMO he was and missing 2 black aces I find it very unlikely that he has ♥ losers.

Yes I have mentioned and agreed (refer to my second post) that we have more than a minimum negative double. I believe that partner's 5♦ bid is a bid that will maximise our chances of making a game and if not preempt LHO of a low level rebid. By maximising I mean partner might be hoping we have the ♠A to lead a club up to his king, or maybe partner is hoping we have more than 0 diamonds so diamonds could either break or maybe he can take a finesse (with his AQJ-8th). We don't need many face cards for partner in order for game to make (which is your point yes) but that does not assure a heart void with partner or a singleton heart and solid diamonds. If you looked at the example hands I've given, you do not need much from partner in order to make 5♦ but 3NT might be going down (and partner did not want a dreaded auction that begins with 2♥ - remember this is an unestablished partnership). However we cannot be sure that we are not off 2 red losers as the opponents are on lead and we do not have a single diamond to provide partner with a hopeful diamond break or a diamond hook.

 

Also, you reckon partner has no heart losers, missing 2 black aces and has a solid (or near solid) diamond suit? If that's the case then why did partner not bid 2♥, jump to 4♦ and then keycard?

[CSGibson]

BTW, I raised partner to 6 (to push the board). Here were my thoughts:

 

(1) We're vulnerable, and opponents have not been aggressive in the auction. Partner is bidding to make.

 

(2) Partner likely does not have a void in spades because the opponents would have bid that suit if they have 9 of them. The same inference is available, though less strong, in clubs.

 

(3) To have her bid, partner almost needs either solid trump or a heart void, with the latter being more likely because she did not attempt to get us to NT. Otherwise, the hand she has is looking at has at least one loser in each suit, which would not be a good vulnerable 5 diamond bid. A heart void with a one loser diamond suit would also explain partner's reluctance to try for 3N.

 

(4) Having worked that out, 6 diamonds is the percentage call, because even if partner does not have the club king, the finesse is likely onside given the overcall and lack of response by LHO.