ATB

[kfay]

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=saqxxxhdakxckqj9x&s=s10hqjxxdxxca10xxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♥-2♥-(P)-3♣

P-3♥-P-3NT

All Pass[/hv]

 

3♣ is pass or correct for the minors. 2NT would have been a gametry in either minor.

 

I guess this isn't really an ATB, but please propose an alternate auction starting with 2♥, since I know that now that everyone has seen both hands they'll be like 'obv I'd double, not bid 2♥'

[aguahombre]

split range Michaels 2H is fine.

Pass or correct is not fine. 2NT would have asked which minor.

If North takes 3C as a nice long club suit, he will still be bidding this hand when the session has ended :).

That would be a good thing.

[gwnn]

Aguahombre did you read the opening post in its entirety?

[wank]

well, i'd respond 2s and hope to escape being doubled, naively assuming partner didn't have half the deck.

 

the strong hand's too good for 3C then imo. what to do? i suppose you have to jump to 4c.

 

the other hand will most likely think this is a splinter, looking at axxxxx of them, but let's assume he trusts his partner. 4H cue bid? the spade singleton is great with so many trumps in hand.

 

sadly the strong hand might be a bit dubious about wheeling out black now lest he can't differentiate between ace of hearts and ace of clubs. would xxxxxx clubs and the ace of hearts make a cue too? probably yes.

 

more importantly, does he know what trumps are? couldn't responder have reevaluated a non-descript 2s response?.

 

wheeling out rkcb without knowing what trumps is a little confusing.

 

might jsut try to clear matters up with a jump to 6c ending the auction.

[aguahombre]

Aguahombre did you read the opening post in its entirety?

yes. It is ATB. You can't shine a turd. I blame the methods.

[y66]

2H 3C 3H 5C 6C

 

After 3H, 3N and 4C both seem pretty lame to me as does passing 3N.

[kfay]

2H 3C 3H 5C 6C

 

After 3H, 3N and 4C both seem pretty lame to me as does passing 3N.

to me... 3♥ doesn't say 'i have clubs!'

[kfay]

Aguahombre did you read the opening post in its entirety?

yes. It is ATB. You can't shine a turd. I blame the methods.

You can't say 'split range is fine' and also 'methods suck'

 

guess what, when you have a weak range you want to invite without going to the 4-level!

 

your post is the one that needs shining... blah blah blah. could say a lot of things really

[awm]

After the 3♣ call, I don't see any real alternatives to the auction given.

 

From south's viewpoint, north is overwhelmingly likely to have ♠+♦. The 3♥ bid shows a strong hand, but it doesn't clarify which minor opener holds. Bidding 3NT on the heart controls seems obvious.

 

From north's viewpoint, there is no particular reason south has to have such a great club fit or such a good hand. North has basically forced game by himself and partner didn't encourage him further.

 

So if we're looking for blame, I think there are three places to put it.

 

(1) The 3♣ call. South certainly wants to locate a huge club fit if there is one, and encourage partner to bid on (either competitively or to make). There are many sequences where opener's minor will be hidden (i.e. west bids 3♥/4♥ and north passes, or the actual auction). If 3♣ is "pass or correct" then what is 3♦? If also "pass or correct" this will clarify the big club fit (just in case partner has clubs). If not, then what is 2NT? Making the same call here as would be made on some lousy balanced hand doesn't seem right to me. Of course, if 3♣ is natural (showing an independent club suit, with 2NT being the ask) then it's a fine call, but this is apparently not the agreement.

 

(2) The 2♥ call. It's fairly easy to imagine diamonds being the best strain looking at the north hand, and north is also strong enough to double and then bid again. I think double is a clear choice on this particular hand.

 

(3) The methods. It seems that south has no sensible way to suggest game in clubs while playing 3♦ opposite the common weak 5♠/5♦ two-suiter.

[y66]

2H 3C 3H 5C 6C

 

After 3H, 3N and 4C both seem pretty lame to me as does passing 3N.

to me... 3♥ doesn't say 'i have clubs!'

Ahem. Right.

 

... 2H 3C 3H 3N 4C 5C pass

[jdonn]

I think there is no way north should pass 3NT. Partner has two or fewer spades, you seem really likely to have a good fit in one minor or the other. Even if you don't or partner is loaded in hearts then partner can bid 4NT and you have only lost (much) if you make exactly 9 tricks. That seems like a small price to pay to avoid playing 3NT when you may be cold for a grand slam. In fact I'd say north passing 3NT is a huge error.

 

I will offer:

(1♥) 2♥ 3♣

3♥ 3NT

4♣ 4♥

4♠

and it could go a few ways from there. Some of the auctions to get to a grand from there seem like resulting or double dummy, but there is a fair chance (I think south might simply bid 6♣ and be raised) and in any case the small slam will easily be reached.

 

Now that I've played the game by the rules, why do you only care if any call after the first was wrong but not if the first was wrong? That seems most relevant.

[awm]

I think there is no way north should pass 3NT. Partner has two or fewer spades, you seem really likely to have a good fit in one minor or the other. Even if you don't or partner is loaded in hearts then partner can bid 4NT and you have only lost (much) if you make exactly 9 tricks.

Disagree with this; it could be that 3NT is already failing. Even though 4NT is "just one more down" you have so far avoided being doubled and this may not continue at the four-level. You also may be putting partner to a guess whether to play 5♣ or 4NT, which he might get wrong.

 

There is no particular reason partner can't be long in hearts; the lack of heart raise/rebid plus north's void seems to mark south with some heart length on this bidding. Partner can be 2443 or 2533 or 1543 on this bidding for example. And even where we have a nine-card club fit, we are off a slow diamond trick in addition to the club ace and spade king (finesse maybe, but we may lack entries and opener doesn't need to have every missing card here either) on a hand where partner might have no values outside hearts at all.

[kfay]

@ jdonn: have asked a few people and it seems like a relatively even divide btw * and 2h. My partner chose 2h.

 

Aside from that the hand is trivial after * maybe we won't get to grand but we'll certainly reach 6c

[jdonn]

I think there is no way north should pass 3NT. Partner has two or fewer spades, you seem really likely to have a good fit in one minor or the other. Even if you don't or partner is loaded in hearts then partner can bid 4NT and you have only lost (much) if you make exactly 9 tricks.

Disagree with this; it could be that 3NT is already failing. Even though 4NT is "just one more down" you have so far avoided being doubled and this may not continue at the four-level. You also may be putting partner to a guess whether to play 5♣ or 4NT, which he might get wrong.

Short of them having exactly 4 sure tricks in one hand you are never being doubled in 4NT, they didn't double 3NT and you just showed a better hand.

 

And how in the world is giving partner a choice of contracts, either of which may be right, supposed to be a point against bidding? That makes about the least sense of any argument I've ever heard. He will go right well over half the time anyway, we have described a lot about our hand. He may even bid 4♦ and we can find a great contract in that suit.

 

I mean this is all silly, the right contract could be 3NT, 5♣, 5♦, 6♣, 6♦, 7♣, maybe 7♦, maybe 4♠. You improve your odds tremendously if the right contract is the last 7 of those things by pulling, and either lose or break even if it's 3NT. Partner doesn't even know our minor yet! I still believe passing is awful.

[bonxie]

South 100% and be thankful for your methods.

 

If playing minors as pass and correct then the South hand is an obvious 3♦ bid.

 

Even opposite a weak 55 in clubs and spades the south hand is huge, while it's pretty hopeless opposite spades and diamonds, exactly what a 3♦ bid says

 

North then knows of the genuine club support and relatively short spades (no spade raise) and is off to the races. I think 7♣ will be hard to reach since N will be concerned about the third diamond but 6 should be trivial

[andy_h]

In fact I'd say north passing 3NT is a huge error.

Totally agree with this.

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=w&v=e&n=saqxxxhdakxckqj9x&s=s10hqjxxdxxca10xxxx]133|200|Scoring: IMP

1♥-2♥-(P)-3♣

P-3♥-P-3NT

All Pass[/hv]

 

3♣ is pass or correct for the minors. 2NT would have been a gametry in either minor.

 

I guess this isn't really an ATB, but please propose an alternate auction starting with 2♥, since I know that now that everyone has seen both hands they'll be like 'obv I'd double, not bid 2♥'

'obv I'd double, not bid 2♥' ;) Not sure I understand 2NT. Does that mean I can make a game try in ♣ but pass 3♦ or bid 3♠/3♦ (not that I'd want to in this case)? If so I think the Michael's partner should start with 2NT just to prep a sacrifice if partner's minor is ♣.

[gwnn]

I think it means that you bid your minor if you're minimum and bid something else if maximum (maybe flags)

[hanp]

I might have duplicated the auction after the 2H call. Maybe jdonn is right that passing 3NT is wrong, but I am not convinced.

 

I do think double is better than 2H. It might also be good to agree that after 3C, 3H shows a max with clubs and 3S a max with diamonds. I think showing the second suit is often more important than showing a 6th spade, since you almost always want to show the minor below 3NT and you only rarely have 6 spades.

[y66]

I like ... 4C 4H in jdonn's auction as a way of distinguishing hands that are not minimum from others whilst denying a diamond control and keeping 4N in the picture. Does 4H say more than that?

[nigel_k]

I agree that North should not pass 3NT on the actual hand, but the contract is bad even if north has a more mundane hand like AQxxx x Ax KQxxx so there's still an issue with the methods. I agree with 3♦ also being pass and correct (obviously with club length) to get around this problem.

[Crunch3nt]

If playing minors as pass and correct then the South hand is an obvious 3♦ bid.

 

Even opposite a weak 55 in clubs and spades the south hand is huge, while it's pretty hopeless opposite spades and diamonds, exactly what a 3♦ bid says

 

North then knows of the genuine club support and relatively short spades (no spade raise) and is off to the races. I think 7♣ will be hard to reach since N will be concerned about the third diamond but 6 should be trivial

Excellent analysis pinpointing the issue. Given these methods 3D was a much better call.

 

Re methods, playing specific Michaels would have helped a lot here too.

[andy_h]

This would be a non-problem if 3♦ was pass or correct but I have a feeling it's an inv+ raise in spades...kfay?

[gwnn]

i blame kfay

[kfay]

This would be a non-problem if 3♦ was pass or correct but I have a feeling it's an inv+ raise in spades...kfay?

yeah but now i've altered this over (1♥)-2♥