Direct seat

[gnasher]

I think that if you double, LHO bids 2S and partner has a competitive hand without a 4-card heart suit or a 5-card minor with secondary honors, double is likely to work out less well than passing.

I think that understates it.

 

Let's try giving him primary honours, and length opposite our secondary honour as well: xx xxx Axx A10xxx. I still don't want him to compete to 3♣ (though I wouldn't mind his raising my 1NT overcall).

 

Or let's give him four hearts: xx K109x Axxx xxx will look like quite a nice hand to him, but we'd still rather be defending 2♠.

[peachy]

I play 15+ to 18-  overcall NT.  For me this is not a good 15, it could easily be seen as 14 1/2.  The choice is between Dbl and Pass. I Dbl and let partner make all decisions thereafter.

based on his knowledge of your takeout double shape.

Please explain.

[aguahombre]

I only meant that it is hard for partner to "make all the decisions thereafter", when the double gave him little or no clue about your distribution.

 

Whatever decisions he does make will probably not allow for the possibility that you have a 1NT hand.

[jdonn]

I would double and don't see what the big deal is, 1NT looks way too risky on this "15 count" I'd much prefer pass to that. If 1NT were to get doubled I think I would throw up on my shoes.

 

Maybe it's me but lots of the arguments made lately on the forums seem strange to me. If I double I don't feel partner must compete on a 2353 6 count (although he might and then that might be fine), whereas If I bid 1NT and they raise I don't think he is possibly selling out on a nice 2443 7 count.

[awm]

I don't really get the argument about double being "safer."

 

In either case you can't play a contract below 1NT (since the opening was 1♠). In either case opponents have a call that shows values (double of 1NT or redouble over 1♠X) and "trains the guns" for further penalty doubles.

 

Maybe your opponents don't know how/when/where to penalize, but it seems like their opportunities to do so are roughly the same in both auctions. Bidding 1NT makes it more likely that we play in 1NT rather than a 4-3 (or 5-3) minor suit fit, at the cost of missing some 4-4 heart fits. Double also creates some issues when partner has a balanced hand opposite -- it seems like we could easily miss a game if partner advances 1NT on 10-11 hcp, or play a silly 2NT if partner advances 1NT on 6-7 hcp and we raise, or play a ridiculous partial if partner is disallowed from bidding 1NT on 6-7 hcp and instead bids a four (or even three!) card minor suit.

 

I'd overcall 1NT, keeping in mind that if doubled, I have methods allowing me to reach a good two-level fit when one exists. Obviously this is not totally safe (could go for a number) but I don't see it as any more dangerous than double, and pass has its own risks (chiefly missing a game).

[jdonn]

In either case you can't play a contract below 1NT (since the opening was 1♠). In either case opponents have a call that shows values (double of 1NT or redouble over 1♠X) and "trains the guns" for further penalty doubles.

Doubling 1NT has a lower minimum than redouble and is also made on more shapes by most players. Also in only one case can we play 2♣ or 2♦ (unless 1NT is doubled of course).

 

Bidding 1NT makes it more likely that we play in 1NT rather than a 4-3 (or 5-3) minor suit fit, at the cost of missing some 4-4 heart fits.

I don't see why 5-3 minor suit fits are mentioned in parentheses as though they are some sort of unlikely afterthought. They are likely and they matter.

[peachy]

I only meant that it is hard for partner to "make all the decisions thereafter", when the double gave him little or no clue about your distribution.

 

Whatever decisions he does make will probably not allow for the possibility that you have a 1NT hand.

I *don't* have a 1NT hand. If I did, I would have bid 1NT.

[gszeszycki]

This hand has a decent amount of trick taking potential (behind opening bidder) but need p to have several entries to take advantage of the situation. If we are going to play the hand we will probably be best served by getting p to bid their longest suit to increase the number of entries. I am not ashamed of any side suit and the known long suit with opps makes nt far less appealing (unless p can bid it).

 

I choose x

[P_Marlowe]

1NT.

 

But we play fairly light 1NT overcalls.

 

For most, this hand is most likely too weak for a direct 1NT, so you have

to make a T/O.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Fluffy]

MY aversion towards 1NT is not going for a number in 1NT, it is playing a hopeless game, in 3NT or 4♥.

[pooltuna]

I would double and don't see what the big deal is, 1NT looks way too risky on this "15 count" I'd much prefer pass to that. If 1NT were to get doubled I think I would throw up on my shoes.

 

Maybe it's me but lots of the arguments made lately on the forums seem strange to me. If I double I don't feel partner must compete on a 2353 6 count (although he might and then that might be fine), whereas If I bid 1NT and they raise I don't think he is possibly selling out on a nice 2443 7 count.

I agree with you. As for your other remarks I really thought I hadn't been posting enought but guess I was wrong ;)

[hanp]

I don't really get the argument about double being "safer."

 

I'm very surprised by this comment. My bridge experience tells me that we'll go for a number after 1NT much more often than after a double.

 

If we overcall 1NT, LHO will double on very many more hands than after we double. For example, LHO will double 1NT on a 10-count with a 6-card suit, or with 3-card support for spades, while after a double LHO will often bid his suit or find a raise.

 

Also, after 1NT gets doubled, partner will often pass, not knowing that we have anywhere to run, while after 1S - Dbl - Rdbl, partner and I both know that we are looking for our best fit, and also, partner knows that we have 3 or 4 hearts, with 4 being more likely. After 1S - Dbl - Rdbl we will often land in our best fit, while after 1S-1NT- Dbl we don't even know whether we should stay in 1NT or look for a fit.

 

I didn't think of this before, so maybe my arguments didn't come out as clearly as they could have. But somehow I am very sure that doubling 1S is safer than bidding 1NT, and I'm surprised that any bridge player could have different experiences.

[hanp]

I now see jdonn said pretty much the same but in other words.

[hanp]

I think that if you double, LHO bids 2S and partner has a competitive hand without a 4-card heart suit or a 5-card minor with secondary honors, double is likely to work out less well than passing.

I think that understates it.

 

Let's try giving him primary honours, and length opposite our secondary honour as well: xx xxx Axx A10xxx. I still don't want him to compete to 3♣ (though I wouldn't mind his raising my 1NT overcall).

 

Ah I see, I wrote "with" where it obviously should have been "without". I hope that was clear as I was reacting to your 5-card suit without secondary honors.

[neilkaz]

I now see jdonn said pretty much the same but in other words.

I agree with you and jdonn in this thread and prefer double to 1NT and would like a hand with more trick taking promise for a 1NT overcall.

[gnasher]

Ah I see, I wrote "with" where it obviously should have been "without". I hope that was clear as I was reacting to your 5-card suit without secondary honors.

OK. It wasn't clear that that was what you meant, because my first example contained one secondary honour and one primary honour, and there were no brackets around "5-card minor with secondary honors".

 

I don't really think the nature of partner's honour holdings is that important, since in the scenario I'm talking about I have the bulk of our strength. What really matters is that I have loads of secondary honours, two of them in RHO's suit.

 

We can give partner a whole pack of secondary honours, if you like: xx Qxx QJ10xx Qxx. Or just lots of honours in his own suit: xx xxx AQJ10x xxx. In both cases I still prefer 2♠ to 3♦.

[Apollo81]

I'd pass.

 

I'm guessing that by bidding or doubling we go for 800/1100 about as often as we get to an otherwise unreachable making game. At total points, I think it needs to be more like 65-35 to justify bidding/doubling. On some hands where we have a making game, partner may be able to balance/overcall/preempt.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=e&v=b&s=sqj7haj86dk54ckj4]133|100|Scoring: Total Points

RHO deals and opens 1S.[/hv]

1NT, if you get doubled, you should have a good run-out structure. For this hand, 1NT looks better than double because it shows your general strength and shape well. Of course some may play 16-18 1NT, then they have to balance with some rather light values, and they may easily get stolen if responder bids on with not very much. Perhaps in the future, 1NT overcalls can be as low as good 14 I guess, since so many players tend to open and respond without much.

[awm]

I don't really get the argument about double being "safer."

 

I'm very surprised by this comment. My bridge experience tells me that we'll go for a number after 1NT much more often than after a double.

My experience is the opposite of this. Perhaps some of it is that I've had a lot of auctions where 1NT is doubled for penalty and we successfully run to a two-level suit contract which opponents fail to double (or which actually makes). If your tendency is to virtually always sit for 1NTX then you may get different results.

 

While some opponents double 1NT substantially lighter than they redouble, I'm not really sure why this is. The 1NT bid shows a stronger hand -- why should we need less to penalize a stronger opponent? In fact I've seen a lot of the doubles of 1NT on marginal hands lead to 1NTX making. It really seems like the belief that double is "safer" is relying on opponents not to know how/when to penalize rather than any technical merit.

 

Even accepting that people double 1NT for penalty on many hands where they won't redouble, if you overcall 1NT and LHO doesn't double you are very likely to be safe. People definitely do not reopen after 1♠-1NT-P-P very aggressively; I have seen many hands on these forums where opener had extras but the suggested action after 1♠-1NT-P-P was pass.

 

On the other hand, even if LHO doesn't redouble you are definitely not out of the soup after your double. There are many auctions like 1♠-X-P-2bid-X-All pass or 1♠-X-P-2bid-P-P-X-All pass. There are also auctions where partner mistakenly competes, like 1♠-X-2♠-3bid-X. I've actually gone for a number after a takeout double (even a perfectly normal takeout double) quite a few more times than after a 1NT overcall.

[whereagles]

It's an honest 15, but I have a bad feeling about this, so I will PASS.

[jdonn]

Awm is still making argument after argument that I completely disagree with. Gnasher is still giving example hands where he wants to defend 2♠ but I can't imagine partner passing over a 1NT overall and 2♠ raise. I honestly don't know where to go from here.

[bluecalm]

I dbl. I think it's too weak a hand for 1NT.

I can live with overcalling 1NT though.

 

I agree that dbl is much safer than 1NT. People just auto double every 8 count while they need 10+ for redoubling.

I also don't see how running to the best suit is difficult after dbl. Partner will bid his 5carder, 4♥ or better minor in that order. No problems here.

[gnasher]

Gnasher is still giving example hands where he wants to defend 2♠ but I can't imagine partner passing over a 1NT overall and 2♠ raise.

Yes, I think my examples have talked me into passing. I expect a 1NT overcall to work out well only if we get to play there opposite a smattering of points. It will probably be bad if partner moves, partner competes over a raise, or partner has a poor hand. That seems too narrow a target to aim at.

 

I honestly don't know where to go from here.

Well, you could join in the construction game and show us some hands where you think a takeout double will work well.

[Codo]

As always many strong opinions, but this time I disagree with my British hero. I would double and I always thought that I am one of the most off shape double haters on earth.

 

And of course doubling 1 Nt is much easier then nailing you after XX.

[hanp]

Gnasher is still giving example hands where he wants to defend 2♠ but I can't imagine partner passing over a 1NT overall and 2♠ raise.

Yes, I think my examples have talked me into passing. I expect a 1NT overcall to work out well only if we get to play there opposite a smattering of points. It will probably be bad if partner moves, partner competes over a raise, or partner has a poor hand. That seems too narrow a target to aim at.

 

I honestly don't know where to go from here.

Well, you could join in the construction game and show us some hands where you think a takeout double will work well.

I'd say it should be easy to cook up hands where partner will bid 4H and make it if we double, but we won't bid at all if we pass now.